martyrme19

I tried my best to read each response and I feel like no one really mentioned the obvious.

All of what people said about why the NHL and NFL are among the toughest are right. However with one glaring absence. Simply put - more NHL teams can realistically win the Stanely Cup in the playoffs than any other sport. Look no further than this years 8 seed winning it all.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that has ever happened in the NBA. Even before the lockout, upsets were always rampant. Now, this is why I differ it from the NFL (where low seeds can also have success). In the NFL, a low seed can go far by going on a streak simply because its 1 and done. Anyone can get lucky a couple of times. But only the perfect makeup of the NHL requires just enough games to make it supremely tough for even the best team in the NHL to win, and for a low seeded team to prevail. If a low seed team wins, they prove that it wasn't a fluke whereas in the NFL, you can't claim that.

K, end of story.

I do not disagree with the aforementioned argument that it intangibly affects the game.  Obviously, it does do that.  Yes, it is a part of the game and I feel that this is well incorporated in my previous post.  There are also many other parts of the game that one could easily argue are bigger parts... skating, passing, shooting, hitting, defence, goaltending... or others more along the lines of fighting - roughing, cross-checking, or even face washes, etc.

My issue, which I feel was stated clearly, was with your statement that fighting "is the game."  That was a false and ridiculously eggagerated statement.  I find it humorous how hypocritical it is of you to accuse me of not listening.... and to say that I am dead wrong.

You love fighting in hockey and think that it is a quintessential part of the game.  I enjoy fighting in certain circumstances and feel that it adds to the game in those circumstances, but there are also times when I feel that it takes away from the game.  I think that is a correct assessment of our disagreement.... but fighting isn't hockey.  That's just a ridiculous thing to say.  You are overstating its importance by a long shot, in my opinion.

When I say something IS the game - I mean it. Its part of hockey and its heritage. You'll retort to something like how in peewees they dont have fighting and that's still hockey. But you would be wrong - because 1, nobody watches peewee hockey except parents, and 2, there is a natural progression of education in terms of physical contact. Otherwise, mites would be allowed to check right off the bat.

For you to devalue the fighting aspect that the sport has carried since its inauguration is equivalent to you saying - well they dont NEED to play on ice!
I mean, as you said, you take out shooting - and it isnt hockey.
take out passing - and it isnt hockey.
take out defence - and it isnt hockey.
take out goaltending - and it isnt hockey.
take out the sheet of ice - and it isnt hockey.

So any one of those aspects is correctly argued that it IS the game, because without it, the sport is something different. So take the ice out too buddy, since you don't seem to bother changing whatever the hell you damn well please.

Or better yet, since you obviously dont care for the fighting, youll obviously get over it if there is no ice - do us all a favor, go watch roller hockey and leave my sport the f*** alone.

Man, I never realized there were that many neuro-surgeons and psychologists in here.

That's absolutely amazing!

Opinions and assholes, and the other way around.
Are you really filled with that much belief in yourselves, that you think your uneducated guess bears any weight? Really?
Not one of us knows what caused what effect, or if the effect is the cause, so maybe we should stop with the wild guessing-games?

Sometime we might have a clear-cut answer as to what led to these untimely deaths, but it sure as hell won't spring from
a thread on a message board.

Really, you and I know nothing of what the cause is. So what's the argument?
It's all guesses, from people with little to no insight.
It's dumb.

None of us KNOW s*** about it.

Leave it to those who actually know what to look for, and know how to interpret the facts.

You know, doctors, professors, etc.

You know, the people with all of the tools none of us have... You know, EXPERTS.
With Machines and s***!



Sweet Jesus on his Tyranosaurus.
You know nothing. As do I.

Calm down.
At least stop arguing a point for which you have NO proof.

I firmly believe what I have to say is right. I'm basing what I have to say on proof that is available to the general public.
The EXPERTS (The Hennepin County (Minn.) Medical Examiner's office)listed Boogard's cause of death as a mixture of alcohol and oxycodone toxicity.

The EXPERTS (News1130 in Vancouver) listed Rypiens death as a suicide. Another expert, James Mirtle of the Mail and Globe reported Rypien suffered from depression and missed most of last season because of a leave of absence citing, "personal reasons".

Another EXPERT, Lionel Aadland (Belaks fricken father and former police officer) reports that his son took his own life.

And Just so I cover ALL OF MY BASES.

EXPERTS* reported the death of the players occuring in the KHL plane crash also had nothing to do with fighting. It was caused by the plane falling out of the sky.

*experts in this statement include but are not exclusive tof****** gravity*


Also, I hate using this as a statement but it does merit some weight in this argument - I often feel like I am one of the only few on these boards who have played pro hockey. As a player who has led a team in both scoring and fighting majors, I feel like I know the culture of fights in a hockey game from the perspective of a fighter and a player who is protected by its fighters. I have also had many many many sessions with professionally trained medical staffers and I would like to think that the knowledge they have bestowed upon me could also be categorized as an expert opinion.

Also - many of these arguments have no need for input from experts whatsoever. They simply require basic logical analyses and common sense. Cause and effect is a skill I have been honing since pre-school.

I don't know, I just don't think it's a huge coincidence that we lost 3 young hockey players in a couple months, and they all had a similar role and shared a certain play style.

Bro, Thats EXACTLY what it is. If these patterns have been going on for 70 years, THEN it wouldn't be a coincidence.

Enforcers seems to have an affinity for these lifestyles more than other hockey players.

People have already correctly responded to this, but just in case - the fighting itself does not cause their lifestyles. It is more than likely these players lifestyles that have led them to be successful fighters.

C'MON MAN!!!

No.  It isn't.  The '20 minutes of game time where the puck is in play' (per period) is the game.  

And yes, we all realize that fighting has been around in hockey for a long time.  That's why I have to hear my dad give me the old 'I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out' joke every time I bring the game up.  Fighting is fewer and farther between than it used to be, and while I do not think that fighting should be disposed of from hockey or anything like that.... but I do think that the changes we've seen as far as fighting goes is for the better.

I enjoy a good fight when it IS part of the game.  I enjoyed the Wings in the 90s as much as anyone else.  I loved Shanahan and McCarty, but they were hockey players who could fight.  I do not like players who fight just to fight for no real reason and that is basically their sole purpose - guys who wouldn't be playing otherwise.... fighters who play hockey.  If you seriously think fighting IS the game - go watch UFC or something.

Yes it is. First I can argue how it intangibally affects the game. You know exactly what I would say, so I won't waste my time. You would just argue it and not listen anways. So....

Its part of the rule book and in such a way to be incorporated in the game. So ya, you're dead wrong. No questions.

Not to me, I'd rather not see players die young and would rather see the game of hockey played with skill and toughness that is tied to the actual game and not just punches.

I mean, are you serious? You do know that hockey has seen fighting since the birth of its existence, right? It IS the game. Besides, whether there is fighting or not, there will always be 20 minutes of game time where the puck is in play so you don't have to worry.

You know that fighting has nothing to do with these players deaths, right? I mean, you know that fighting has existed in hockey for more than 5 years ago and that there haven't been any issues like this before? But then maybe you'll site Proberts premature death. But then i'll just retort with his destructive life style and cocain addiction - so don't bother.

The word of the day: Slactivism.

Slacktivism (sometimes slactivism) is a portmanteau formed out of the words slacker and activism. The word is usually considered a pejorative term that describes "feel-good" measures, in support of an issue or social cause, that have little or no practical effect other than to make the person doing it feel satisfaction. The acts tend to require minimal personal effort from the slacktivist.

Slacktivist activities include signing Internet petitions[1], joining a community organization without contributing to the organization's efforts, copying and pasting of Social Network statuses or messages or altering one's personal data or avatar on social network services.

EA responded about Helm's lack of speed rating and said that a player of his caliber (not quite the elite goal scorer) would be able to be exploited online by user players to be more of a weapon than he actually is. Speed is one of the more lethal skill attributes in the game so for someone who isn't know quite yet for goal scoring, he needed to be handicapped in the speed department to make the overall player more realistic.

Just reporting.

Well stated.

If they want to support charities with their money, more power to them.  Some are ones I don't support; some are ones I do.  Some are ones I've never heard of.

Either way, it's their money.

The company, on the other hand, uses high-pressure tactics and breaks its people down to get money from them.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, let me tell you about a conversation between my former roommate and her mother, who was generally a very normal person.  

I had asked her about the "system" she was following.  I knew it was making her miserable and costing her money that she didn't have.  She got upset (and she's usually calm and level-headed) and said she wasn't allowed to talk about it.  Only her father and brother-in-law could.  

So her father and mother came over- dad in a suit and tie, mom in a dress, and my roommate changed into a nice blouse and skirt.  She had been cleaning all day.  I felt underdressed, but I sat through the meeting.  I was scared away by the pressure, but said I'd think about it because her dad just wouldn't take no for an answer.

Then her mother took her upstairs and ripped her a new ******* because she had ruined everything by not following the system.  Their family would be in financial ruin because of her because she didn't follow the system.  Her sister, who was her parents' sponsor would be angry with the parents for not getting me on board, and it was her fault for not following the system.

My roommate was crying and asking what she did wrong.  Her mother was upset because she had worn a blouse and skirt, but the program called for a dress.  The whole thing was her fault.

Later I tried to tell her that I had figured out why the system wouldn't work mathematically (which is the same reason a pyramid scheme wouldn't) and she told me I was not allowed to talk about anything from the meeting to her or anyone else or it would ruin her system and she would not be successful, nor would her family.

These were normal people, but they had been completely brainwashed.

When I hear Amway, I get a knot in my stomach and I get so angry I could just scream, even though this was almost 20 years ago.

This is why I don't want the Wings associated with them, especially not as a presenting sponsor.
As a regular sponsor, you just have your name on the boards or in the program or something.  This is a full-blown commitment.  The public statement said that the two have similar values (or goals, or whatever), which ties them together in ways I am not comfortable with.

Obviously I'm not going to renounce my fanship, but I am just not comfortable with this arrangement at all.

I know multiple people that do Amway. Some have made a ton of money, some havent. I also know people that have gone through info meetings, such as myself.

Lets make one thing clear - your friends and her family are nut jobs. NOT the company. The company didn't yell at her for not wearing a dress. (I know there is no company rule about this, it was probably a personal rule laid out by the crazy family).

I would LOVE to see how you are so uniquely smart that you of all people were able to mathematically solve how this multi-billion dollar company has actually made no money for people. Because apparently, they were able to dupe EVERYONE ELSE in this world to help generate billions and billions of dollars. Have you submitted your mathematical equation to the newspapers? You too could be rich!

As I've said, I've been to the meetings multiple times and I agree - they aren't for me. But to say Amway is crooked because some INDEPENDENT proprietors do their job a little more high pressure than others makes you equally as nutty.

Sales is high pressure. I don't care if you're selling Amway, Cutco knives, cars, electronics or magazine subscriptions. In order to survive, you can't just walk away every time you hear the word no. Sorry if you're too weak to stick to your guns just because someone is persistent. Again, that's just sales. It isn't illegal nor should it be. We all have choices to make.

I get what you're saying, but the premise of which you are labelling the company crooked is wrong.

And the company was started in Ada Michigan by Devos and Van Andel - so they are the two head representatives. Just like Illitch is the head rep for Little Caesars. Two HUGE michigan based companies that are gigantic philanthropists back to the State.

All I'm saying is - considering how much these individuals network circles cross, this sponsorship makes a ton of sense. People just need to relax.

THIS is exactly the point.

People aren't upset about corporate sponsorship, as that was inevitable.  People are upset because its Amway.  Amway is a shadyf****** pyramid scheme.  They are scumbags that prey on the vulnerable.

And to the guy who keeps saying the Amway helped out their local community.  So what?  I know its an extreme example, but so did Pablo Escobar.  He was considered a saint in his community and helped everyone out, built up neighborhoods, built schools, etc.  But in the bigger scheme of things, he was a total monster.  Much like Amway.

Right Right - I see what you did there. Pablo Escobar murdered innocent people and smuggled narcotics that leveled communities. **** Devos started a business that sells cleaning products, nutritional products and cosmetics.

I bet....I bet you cry fowl when people used propoganda to compare Obama to Hitler for his socialistic opinions. But hey - this is all just for fun, right?

That I could tolerate more than those idiots trying to pull a Ponzi scheme.

And I don't care if it doesn't pay the bills by calling it Howe Arena.  At least we could hold our heads high doing so.  Anything else, and I'd want to hide in shame.

I don't want to be condescending because of your misunderstanding of what a ponzi scheme is. That is because I'm sure that 90% of the people on this forum don't know what a ponzi scheme is and how it compares to a pyramid scheme.

A ponzi scheme is, in recent current events, what Bernie Madoff went to jail for. To put it simply it is this:
You convince a bunch of people to give you $50 billion dollars to invest. You only give millions back shown as investment profits to those people - you keep the rest. Your initial investors believe that their original principal of $50 billion is still safe and secure but really, you've spent them on fancy things like big boats, houses and silk underwear.
You survive because your success keeps bringing in new investors with more and more money because even if an investor wants to take out all of their money out, you can survive the blow because others pay even more into the system.

So you see - it is dead wrong to even accuse Amway of being a ponzi scheme because they are completely unrelated.

I am trying to be nice to you, but please understand that when people do say the things you have said it does upset me because it clearly means that you have no basic understanding of the accusations you have made. You have only followed the lead of another ignorant person who blathers wreckless information into the dark.
I only debate on things that I know I know. All too often people make up their minds on a couple of headlines they have seen in passing with no real interest to look into unbiased reporting. It almost isn't their fault, though, as most people don't even know where to access unbiased reporting!

But I digress. Anyway, if you're also wondering how Amway exists as an accused pyramid scheme (I'm assuming that you already know that a pyramid scheme is illegal) it is because, by definition, they are also not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme would require that people are paid to recruit others soley. (Amway people do recruit hard as hell which is where people draw comparisons to cult like groups) However, you do actually have to SELL PRODUCTS in order to ever make money from Amway. Also, Amway buys back excess inventory from its personal distributors.

So ya, I'm sure some people probably think that I must be a part of Amway or something by now. I will tell you this: I HAVE experienced about 3 or 4 meetings where I was trying to be recruited. I did not enjoy the experience and I have stayed far away ever since. However, I simply cannot deny the fact that, though this particular experience was not to my liking, it is NOT MY PLACE to judge others on the decisions that have apparently worked out for them. The company is obviously successful as I believe they are somewhere in the top 30 largest privately owned businesses according to Forbes. Have people invested in the business and came out as losers? With any venture that comes with risk, I bet there have been! But thats why America is America - it is a personal choice for someone to venture into this opportunity. And lest not forget, Amway does provide an opportunity. There will always be winners and losers. The Winners from Amway were probably losers somewhere else and they had to learn a little more about life before they reached success. The losers - my guess is they probably learned something along the way and will eventually find something that works for them. Either way, both groups of people will probably turn out just fine.

Have a fabulous day and a swell tomorrow!

A good watch about our proud new sponsor.

A good look at the founder of our proud new sponsor and just a little snap shot of how he has given back to our community
*Note, these numbers are only until 2005! Also, these are simple numbers. There is no media bias interjected in the report unlike the last post

Richard and Helen DeVos Foundation
126 Ottawa Avenue N.W., Suite 500
Grand Rapids, MI 49503

Media Transparency Profile

For years:

1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005

Total contributed: $ 222,782,656

Name Total
Grand Action Foundation 18,500,000
Gospel Communications International 12,754,725
Blodgett Butterworth Health Care Foundation 11,121,050
National Constitution Center 10,099,000
Grand Valley University Foundation 9,435,000
Grand Rapids Christian School Association 9,408,147
Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church 8,900,000
Calvin College 8,614,300
Hope College 7,550,000
Grand Rapids Symphony 6,991,152
Holland Home 6,553,000
Prison Fellowship Ministries 6,025,000
Ada Christian School 5,155,000
Rehoboth Christian School 3,636,000
Bethany Christian Services 3,450,000
Focus on the Family 3,250,000
University of Central Florida Foundation 3,000,000
Lee University 3,000,000
University of Central Florida 2,500,000
Spanish River Church 2,500,000
Grand Rapids Art Museum 2,442,000
Potter's House 2,250,000
Evangelism Explosion International 2,245,000
DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 2,057,000
Luis Palau Evangelistic Association 2,000,000
Helen DeVos Children's Hospital Foundation 1,708,000
Heritage Foundation, The 1,700,000
Northwood University 1,691,500
Calvin Theological Seminary 1,650,000
Lake Worth Christian School 1,625,450
Partners for Christian Development 1,525,462
Christian Reformed World Relief Committee 1,426,000
Christian Reformed Church N.A. 1,401,000
Gospel Films 1,250,000
Direct Selling Education Foundation 1,250,000
Haggai Institute 1,240,000
YMCA of Boca Raton 1,152,000
Intercollegiate Studies Institute, Inc. 1,125,000
United Network for Organ Sharing 1,125,000
Boy Scouts of America - Gerald R. Ford Council 1,115,000
LaGrave Avenue Christian Reformed Church 1,081,853
Crystal Cathedral Ministries 1,080,000
United Way - Heart of Florida 1,070,000
Van Andel Institute 1,050,000
Mount Vernon Estate and Gardens 1,000,000
American Red Cross of Central Florida 1,000,000
Russian American Christian University 1,000,000
Palm Beach Atlantic University 1,000,000
Children's Scholarship Fund 930,000
Christ Memorial Reformed Church 925,000
Northern Michigan University 920,000
Partners Worldwide 825,000
Western Theological Seminary 810,000
Inner City Christian Federation 800,000
United Way - Heart of West Michigan 800,000
Frederik Meijer Gardens 780,700
Orlando Magic Youth Foundation 775,038
Prelude Worldwide Ministries 750,000
Lee College 750,000
CrossRoads Prison Ministries 730,000
Pine Rest Foundation 659,650
Media Research Center, Inc. 600,000
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 591,000
Mel Trotter Ministries 560,000
Family of Faith Church 555,000
Health Intervention Services 550,000
Caring House Project Foundation 500,000
Keystone Community Church 500,000
Mount Vernon Ladies Association of the Union 500,000
Mississippi Hurricane Recovery Fund 500,000
Friends of the Americas 480,000
Davenport University 475,000
American Symphony Orchestra League 475,000
Florida Sunshine Pops, Inc. 450,000
Christian Counseling Center 437,500
Ligonier Ministries 425,000
International Society for Ocean Monitoring and Research 410,000
Hope Network 404,720
Michigan Family Forum 385,000
Hope Network Foundation 377,174
Right to Life of Michigan Educational Fund 375,000
Primary Focus 350,000
Fort Lauderdale Christian School 350,000
Raymond F. Kravis Center for the Performing Arts, Inc. 334,975
American Heart Association - Michigan Affiliate, Inc. 325,000
Pregnancy Resource Center 325,000
Baxter Community Center 320,000
Junior Achievement of the Michigan Great Lakes, Inc. 310,500
Florida Philharmonic Orchestra 305,000
Salvation Army, Palm Beach County 300,000
International Aid 300,000
Hope Pregnancy Centers of Broward 300,000
West Michigan Christian Foundation 298,512
National Organization on Disability 275,000
Worldwide Christian Schools 270,000
Kent County Parks Foundation 269,700
YMCA of South Palm Beach County 255,000
Millennium Park Project 250,000
Ukrainian Center for Christian Cooperation 250,000
Rotary Club of Grand Rapids 250,000
Boy Scouts of America - Gulf Stream Council, Inc. 250,000
Public Museum Foundation of Grand Rapids 237,500
Bethesda Hospital Foundation 230,000
Christian Reformed World Missions 230,000
Madison Square Christian Reformed Church 215,300
Indian Trails Camp 215,000
Insight for Living 210,000
St. Petersburg Theological Seminary Foundation 200,000
St. Cecilia Music Society 195,000
Education Freedom Fund 182,500
Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies 180,000
VineBranch, Inc. 178,500
Gift of Life Foundation 175,000
Youth for Christ - Grand Rapids Area 175,000
Vantage Point Forum, Inc. 172,500
American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division 170,000
Christian Learning Center 170,000
Clebe McClary Evangelistic Association 170,000
Campus Crusade for Christ 163,500
Bible League 162,634
Music Mission Kiev, Inc. 161,000
Wedgwood Christian Youth & Family Services 155,000
Russell Kirk Center for Cultural Renewal, The 150,000
Council for National Policy 150,000
Lumiere Medical Ministries, Inc. 150,000
House of Hope 150,000
Christian Reformed Home Missions 150,000
Saint Mary's Mercy Medical Center 150,000
West Michigan Center for Arts & Technology 150,000
Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame 150,000
Teach Michigan Education Fund 149,990
Grand Rapids Youth Commonwealth, Inc. 145,000
City Vision, Inc. 145,000
Alliance Defense Fund, Inc. 130,000
Grand Valley State University 129,000
Urban Youth Workers Institute 125,000
American Heart Association - Florida Affiliate, Inc. 120,000
Horatio Alger Association 120,000
Broadway Theatre Guild 120,000
Zuni Christian Mission School 120,000
Boys and Girls Club of Greater Holland 118,500
Grandville Avenue Arts and Humanities, Inc. 115,000
U.S. ENGLISH Foundation 113,000
Upledger Foundation 112,600
Young Life Greater Grand Rapids 110,000
Salvation Army 110,000
U.S. Sailing Foundation 110,000
Davenport University Foundation 105,000
Interlochen Center for the Arts 104,500
Affordable Medicines for Africa 102,000
Grand Rapids Baptist Schools 101,000
Ferguson Heartside Community Resource Center 100,000
Acton Institute For The Study of Religion and Liberty 100,000
Young Life - National Office 100,000
Michigan Military Air Land and Sea Museum 100,000
Crossroads Christian Communications 100,000
Life Net 21 100,000
Connect Michigan Alliance 100,000
Florida School Choice Fund, Inc. 100,000
Fuller Theological Seminary 100,000
Partnership for Learning 100,000
Geneva Camp & Retreat Center 100,000
Fringe Communications 100,000
Flannel 100,000
Hope Multinational Christian Fellowship 100,000
Grand Rapids Student Advancement Foundation 90,000
Mackinac Center for Public Policy 90,000
Opera Grand Rapids 81,000
YMCA Grand Rapids Metropolitan 80,000
Operation Smile 80,000
North American Choral Company 80,000
West Michigan Strategic Alliance 77,000
Grand Rapids Griffins Youth Foundation 75,000
Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services 75,000
Grand Rapids Ballet 75,000
Transplants Recipients International Organization 75,000
Leadership Institute 75,000
Faith, Inc. 70,000
Young Dads, Inc. 70,000
Foundation for Traditional Values 65,000
American Red Cross - Kent County Chapter 65,000
Rutherford Institute 65,000
International Society of Palm Beach, Inc. 65,000
Council of Michigan Foundations 60,000
Equipping Ministries International, Inc. 60,000
National Right to Read Foundation 60,000
CLC Network (Christian Learning Center) 60,000
American Red Cross - Palm Beach County Chapter 60,000
Visions Teen Parent Foundation, Inc. 60,000
Join Our Youth, Inc. 60,000
Lighthouse Family Center 60,000
Words of HOPE 55,000
Worldwide Lab Improvement, Inc. 55,000
Traditional Values Coalition 54,276
Hospice of Michigan in Grand Rapids 53,000
In The Image 52,500
Pathfinder Resources 52,500
People for People, Inc. 51,000
Alliance for Children Everywhere 50,000
American Red Cross 50,000
Of the People Foundation 50,000
Holland Rescue Mission 50,000
Salvation Army-Grand Rapids 50,000
National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund 50,000
His Caring Place 50,000
Community Defense Counsel 50,000
Hispanic Center of Western Michigan 50,000
Nueva Esperanza, Inc. 50,000
En-Gedi Resource Center, Inc. 50,000
Children First America (Bentonville, AR) 50,000
Ave Maria School of Law 50,000
First Presbyterian Church 50,000
Alliance for School Choice, Inc. 50,000
Chaplain Services, Inc. 47,500
Joy of Music 46,000
Grand Rapids Medical Education and Research Center for Health Professions 45,000
Make A Wish Foundation, Grand Rapids 45,000
American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research 40,000
Christian Schools International 40,000
Boys & Girls Club of Holland 40,000
Kids Hope USA 40,000
Aquinas College 40,000
Choices for Children 37,900
American Red Cross - West Central Michigan 35,000
Back to God Hour 35,000
High Frontier 35,000
John Stott Ministries 34,000
Kent County Literacy Council 32,500
Meet Grand Rapids 31,000
Foundation for the Advancement of Cardiac Therapies 30,000
United Way - Palm Beach County 30,000
Grand Rapids Children's Museum 30,000
Guideposts Publications 30,000
United Way - West Palm Beach 30,000
Building Block Inc. 30,000
New Hope Church 30,000
Zuni Christian Reformed Church 30,000
Noorthoek Academy 28,650
American Cancer Society - Palm Beach 27,500
Plan International USA 26,328
Visiting Nurse Association of West Michigan 25,200
Organ Transplant Fund, Inc. 25,000
Michigan's West Coast 25,000
Plymouth Rock Foundation 25,000
James Madison Foundation, The 25,000
Southeastern Legal Foundation, Inc. 25,000
School to Career Progressions 25,000
First Presbyterian Church (Harbor Springs, MI) 25,000
Second Harvest Gleaners Food Bank 25,000
Stephen's Children Foundation 25,000
Free Congress Research and Education Foundation, Inc. 25,000
Orlando Regional Healthcare Foundation 25,000
National Foundation for Transplants, Inc. 25,000
Cape Eleuthera Foundation 25,000
Catholic Social Services 25,000
Evergreen Commons 20,000
National Kidney Foundation of Michigan 20,000
Orlando Museum of Art, Inc. 20,000
Toys for Tots 20,000
International Urban Associates 20,000
Youth for Christ of Palm Beach County 20,000
Leukemia and Lymphoma Society 20,000
University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center 20,000
Home Repair Services of Kent County 20,000
Christian Foundation Center of America 20,000
Shepherds of Independence 20,000
Roosevelt Park Ministries 19,000
Children's Educational Opportunity (CEO) Foundation America 15,000
National Kidney Foundation of Florida, Inc. 15,000
Chamber Choir of Grand Rapids 15,000
Grand Rapids Area Medical Education & Research Center for Health Professions 15,000
Transplantation Society of Michigan 15,000
Restorers, Inc. 15,000
Homecor 14,000
First United Methodist Church (Grand Rapids, MI) 13,600
Christ's Community Christian Church 12,500
Arthritis Foundation, West Michigan Region 12,000
WXEL - Barry Telecommunications, Inc. 11,000
Coalition for the Homeless of Central Florida 10,000
Gerald R. Ford Foundation 10,000
Association for Christian Foundations 10,000
Hospital Chaplaincy Service 10,000
Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, Inc. 10,000
Florida Hospital Foundation 10,000
National Kidney Foundation 10,000
Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, Inc. 10,000
Guiding Light Mission, Inc. 10,000
Florida House Washington DC, Inc. 10,000
Girl Scouts of Michigan Trails 10,000
J.C. & Frankie Watts Foundation, The 10,000
Holland Christian Schools 10,000
Alzheimer's Community Care 10,000
Michigan Community Blood Centers 10,000
University of Michigan Medical Center 10,000
Conservation International Foundation 10,000
Faith Baptist Bible College and Theological Seminary 10,000
Greater Houston Community Foundation 10,000
Billy Graham Evangelistic Association 10,000
Luke Society 8,000
Community Foundation of the Holland/Zeeland Area 7,500
Public Museum of Grand Rapids 7,500
Aspen Music Festival and School 7,500
Michigan Self Help for Hard of Hearing People 7,500
Patrons of the Arts in the Vatican Museums 7,000
Grand Rapids American Guild of Organists 7,000
Center for New Black Leadership 6,000
Cystic Fibrosis Foundation Headquarters 6,000
Degage Ministries 5,500
Northern Michigan Hospital Foundation 5,500
Capital Research Center 5,000
Corporation for Maintaining Editorial Diversity in America 5,000
Holland Christian Education Society 5,000
Ada Historical Society 5,000
Washington Campus, The 5,000
Grand Rapids Community Foundation 5,000
Reformed Bible College 5,000
Matthew 28 18-20 Charitable Trust 5,000
Lamont Christian School 5,000
FreedomWorks Foundation 5,000
Christian Performing Artists' Fellowship 5,000
Reformed Ecumenical Council 5,000
World Affairs Council of Western Michigan 5,000
Jewish National Fund 5,000
Family Life Center 5,000
Juvenile Diabetes Foundation International of Palm Beach 5,000
Latino Leadership Foundation 5,000
American Cancer Society - Great Lakes Division, Inc. 5,000
Martin Luther King Jr National Memorial Project 5,000
Alamo Resource Conservation and Development Area, Inc. 5,000
Bibles for Mexico 5,000
Blanton-Peale Institute 5,000
Cystic Fibrosis Foundation-Orlando Regional Office 5,000
Dwelling Place, The 5,000
Alzheimer's Association 5,000
Youth Orchestra of Palm Beach County, Inc. 5,000
Cornerstone Foundation 5,000
Place of Refuge 4,320
Rotary Foundation of Rotary International 4,000
Sons of Italy Foundation 3,500
Children's Home Society of Florida 2,500
Palm Beach Community College 2,500
Judicial Watch 2,500
Crooked Tree Arts Council, Inc. 2,000
Silent Observer 1,750
Grand Rapids Central High School 1,500
Close Up Foundation 1,300
Barnabas Ministries, Inc. 1,000
American Water Ski Association 1,000
Camp Roger 1,000
Lowell Area School 1,000
Western Michigan Teen Challenge 1,000
Little Traverse Conservancy 1,000
Dave Dravecky's Outreach of Hope 1,000
Tobacco Free Partners 1,000
Best Friends Foundation 1,000
Snowmass-Wildcat Firefighters Association 1,000
Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, Illinois Chapter 1,000
Enduring Freedom KIA Fund 1,000
Dream for Africa 1,000
Oviedo High School Band Booster Association, Inc. 1,000
Points of Light 1,000
Glen Lake Community Reformed Church 1,000
Westminster Academy 1,000
United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation 1,000
Dwelling Place of Grand Rapids 1,000
Kiwanis Foundation of Harbor Springs 1,000
Young America's Foundation-Santa Barbara 1,000
Spectrum Health 500
Forest Hills Central High School 500
Arizona Memorial Museum Association 500
Tri-Unity Christian School 500
Christ Child Society of Northern Michigan 500
Ocean Reef Chapel Foundation, Inc. 500
Mountain Christian Church 500
Ataxia Telanglectasia Children's Project, Inc. 500
Northwest Michigan Human Services Agency, Inc. 400
Women's Resource Center 200
Pacific Legal Foundation 100

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Those HEATHENS!!! Burn them at the stake!!

No seriously - they do a lot. Good for them... Good for them.

Please remember, everyone, to keep this thread on topic about Amway's sponsorship of the Detroit Red Wings.

If you want to discuss the political ideologies of Amway's founders, or anyone else for that matter, feel free to do so in the Political Discussion subforum.

The sum of the point to my post wasn't politically based, but more on the positive impact the individuals have had for the citizens in our State. I see a direct correlation with the Red Wings because as we know, Illitch has made this team possible due to his good fortunes with Litte Caesars. Furthermore, Illitch has continued to give back in many many ways that has helped stimulate the economy as well as help the advancement in Youth Hockey. This comes back to the Red Wings and their continued large picture success in many ways.

Illitch has obviously fostered an endearing relationship with other successful men in our state and combined they have embarked on quite an impressive hockey Empire (Van Andel Arena/Griffins etc.)

Every other arena has a corporate sponsor (at least nearly) - but how many can say that theirs is HOMEGROWN and continues to feed back into their State and youth? Possibly none - not at the level of which these men have achieved.

I think this is a GREAT thing for the Detroit Red Wings as it further incorporates the family atmosphere that has seperated the Red Wings from the rest and why star players come here to win championships and not fill a trust fund.

Professional Sports are a great thing - but before anything else it is a business. Hence the word "professiona". If anyone actually took a second to see things from a reality view point and take your cliche corporate hate out of the picture, you would see how this will only help the common good of our beloved Red Wings and the state in which the majority of its fanbase resides.

Considering how much **** Devos has done for the city of Grand Rapids and Michigan as a whole - I'm fine with this relationship. I was born in Grand Rapids and know first hand the kind of contribution he has made. Along with Van Andel and Bill Knapp - enough can't be said about all they have given this state.

Regardless of his political leanings, you're delusional if you don't at least recognize his contributions.

wow - I never knew there were so many PhD's floating around on the LGW message boards. I'll come here for expert opinions on things people generally have no idea what they are talking about more often.

I understand what your saying but its the fact he left the best league in the world for easy money. It doesn't make the NHL look so good when some of your star players leave for a smaller league. Thinking about how long it would take me to spend one million dollars. It would take quite a few years spending how I normally would. 11 million per, not including his contract before that is ALOT of money. Depending on how much you make it could take 20 years to save just one million. That's crazy! All I am saying is that he is set for life and then went to Europe, that I understand.But he is coming back at the same time his euro team is having money issues. How greedy can you get?

You're obviously right in the points you are making - it's just that you and I live in a different world than the rest of these guys. Sure those million dollars look mind boggling to us, but the truth is, we have a bit of a bias, ya know? I mean, day in and day out you see athletes go for more money. Are they flawed? Well, as flawed as the next guy. Its easy for us to be critics on the sideline - no one is asking us to decide between 7 million or 9 million. But SO MANY atheletes go for the bigger pay check. In Detroit, we see the exception FAR MORE than the rest of the world and I think that makes us jaded. But guys like Yzerman, Lidstrom and Rafalski are special cases. They have certain ties that they can trade off in place of a little extra money. The same for Tom Izzo. The only reason why he didn't leave East Lansing was because he valued where his roots were and the ties he's made there.
Jagr doesn't have those ties. He was born in the Czech Republic, drafted by Pitt and then played for Washington and NY. Who does he owe? Sure the NHL is the best league in the world - but he's one of the best players in the world. He doesn't owe you, nor I any favors - and who are we to blame him for something that we might (read: probably) do given the same situation?