Calling it a night, long day, late game, lame Wings. Seriously, this is getting old, Wings playing disinterested, lazy, and when the break inevitably go against them, they show weak constitution and sulk. Howard is swimming out there and his skaters are asleep. Game started with the ref letting a lot of clutching and grabbing, but the Wings did this to themselves. Once again, the Wings didn't bother to show up.
This team is feeling sorry for itself; it should be playing pissed off.
lol.. what? If you can suggest that Lucic intended to hit him therefore it's an intent to injure then that infers every hit is an intent to injure if the hit results in an injury. That sounds quite ridiculous. "Kronwalled" is synonymous with "Intent to injure", sorry Kronner.
An intent to injure penalty cannot 100% without error be called because sometimes the intent isn't as obvious. An intent to injure penalty is one of the more major penalties in the game someone can get, so there had better be some pretty damn clear indication that was intended if one is going to be assessed this penalty and the suspension that inevitably would result. This was not the case even remotely with Lucic. He did intend to hit Miller simply because of the technicality of a charging penalty whereby it states that if he doesn't make any reasonable attempt not to hit the goalie outside the crease it's charging.
It is not only Shanny that saw it that way, it was the officials who were officiating the game, who actually got a call right for a change. Lucic was not smiling like hur hur I made a hit on a goalie /trollface, he had Sabres players in his face and was smiling because every single hit of any sort these days needs a stupid ass reaction by teammates. I would laugh too at those idiots.
Haha you don't actually read anything, do you? Quit picking a sentence and applying your own foolish context so that it fits your argument loosely, and address the conversation as a whole. Like I said previously, this does not apply and should not apply to deciding if a clean hit receives a penalty. And to continue to compare this to a skater on skater incident is the most ridiculous thing in this thread. This is intending, and doing a damn good job of achieving a hard open-ice hit on a goaltender without the puck.
By your argument, the Bertuzzi-Moore incident (since apparently we're just making whatever wacky, unrelated, irrelevant references we can since we don't have any hard precedents, right) was a roughing penalty and nothing more, because hey, he got penalized right? And he didn't mean to crumple him like a piece of paper. Sure he meant to hit him, but come on, would he mean to do that? And then all the Avs jumped in on him and Moore, he couldn't control that. That was all just a misunderstanding, he should have served his two and been back out there.
"That's good tough hockey, just like any other hit! Quit being a wimp. There was no intent to injure, therefore he is fine hitting a protected, unhittable player who just so happens to be the most important to the opposition's season. And if he is injured and misses a few games, that's not my fault, I didn't intend for it." - Shoreline (since you did such a good job at putting words in my mouth )
As far as I'm concerned, you're probably closer if you're comparing it to a hit on a linesman then you are a skater on skater hit.
So the latest conspiracy is that Lucic intended to take Miller out..
I've seen goalies hit behind the net countless times when playing the puck. If they get bowled over, in my opinion it's their fault, the rules often disagree with me here, but still, I don't think you quite understand what any levels of intent are.
First is the situation behind the play. They were going for the puck. Lucic braced himself and made the hit. The only reason this is even a penalty is because contact occurred and Lucic made no effort whatsoever to get out of the way.
Second, intent to injure, might wanna re-watch the Flames/Wings series in the 2004 playoffs of Ville Niemenen skating into the crease and elbowing Curtis Joseph in the head. That is an intent to injure. This hit with Lucic on Miller.. give me an effing break.
The talk of intent is silly, and 99 times out of 100 is completely based on speculation and bias. It is nearly impossible to prove intent, which is why it should only be used when it is damn obvious, like say stomping on a players leg with your skate; black and white, only one outcome, injury. Saying you believe that he didn't mean to do it, like Shanahan did here, shouldn't acquit the player of the act. Likewise, we shouldn't condemn a player on plays like this (not black and white like the stomp) based on the way he looked at him or things he said, though after his reaction, Lucic was looking guilty as sin.
In this case, it has little to do with whether Lucic intended to injure Miller when he hit him like he did. It matters that he did intend to hit him, and Miller did get injured. The rest is for the fans to argue. Lucic made a stupid, reckless, dirty play outside of the bounds of the rules (whether you agree with them or not), and it resulted in injury. Period. It doesn't matter if he knew how stupid it was or if he meant it to be as cheap as it was.
This is a different example than most because this wasn't a goaltender getting hit playing the puck behind the net. I usually defend the skater when a goaltender is behind his goal, sitting on a puck and someone bumps into him. This wasn't behind the net. This wasn't a delayed play. There was no puck anymore. This wasn't a little bump.
Everyone needs to stop comparing this play to plays behind the net, and definitely need to drop the whole "but he didn't mean to" argument. Action trumps intent.
Injuries should not have bearing on whether a clean play gets a penalty or a suspension (Kronwall on Havlat). However, in instances like this one, where a play is at the very least stupid and reckless, at its worst cheap and dirty, and considered by all to be a penalty both in the moment and afterwards, the goal of disciplinarians should be to determine the extent to which the player is penalized. More times than not they will decide (correctly) that, while the play was illegal, it was not of an apparent attempt to be 'dirty' or malicious.
In this case, however, the play was unnecessary, borderline cheap on a protected player (a goaltender), and moreover, a player whose talents and position as the franchise goaltender for his team, more than any in the league decide the success or failure of that teams season or beyond. Put it this way: Crosby received his concussion on two plays, one not yet penalized, the final one a seemingly harmless hit. Those were in the bounds of the rules on a skater used to taking hits. People called for suspensions post-injury on even the initial hit. He has been out for the better part of a whole season, and he only plays half to a third of each game.
Miller on the other hand was hit without reason to expect it, outside the bounds of the rules. He plays more than 99.9% of the league's players (even among goaltenders), sixty minutes minutes per game, 65-70 games a year. Concussions (and yes, the NHL's definition of concussions in particular) can happen subtly and linger for months. Lets say at the very least Miller misses 2-3 games with some lingering affects thereafter, that puts 4-6 points in jeopardy for the Sabres plus any diminished performance afterward. How many points separated the 6th best team in each conference from the 10th best team last season?
The Bruins can survive losing Lucic for even 10 games (though 3-5 is probably more appropriate) far better than the Sabres could losing Miller for 3. Set a precedent now, save the league in the long run. Stupid (cheap), unnecessary play ends in injury to a goaltender? Take a seat.
And not to use this as an argument against those who think there should be no suspension, or even those (shockingly enough) who think Miller should shoulder half or more of the blame, but if Howard left the crease, cleared a puck, and then afterwards was bulldozed by a goon like Lucic (completely avoidable), this board would be calling for blood. And Howard is a much sturdier guy the Ryan Miller (210lbs. vs. 175 lbs.).
Any McSorely references related to the Miller attempted slash are R-E-tarded.
Listening to Lucic's postgame interview makes it worse. First tries to make the excuse that he wasn't looking, then bracing himself, because there was supposedly nothing he could do. Then, make a comment that (I'm paraphrasing) "If that happened to our goaltender we would have taken care of it, but we're a different team then they are". Essentially, yeah, he did it, but what are they going to do about it?
Wrong attitude to have. Difference between grit and goon.
- Love Miller, but think goaltenders sometimes put themselves in situations where they should be considered a skater at least to some degree.
- This is not one of those situations, Miller cleared the puck, Lucic finished afterwards. A goalie is a goalie, these aren't new rules.
- Great to hear Miller react to the hit in a way other than it being 'unfortunate' or 'reckless', speak your mind. Love candid players.
- Hate Boston, like the way Lucic plays and would love him on the Wings, but he has the propensity for dumb, reckless plays like this.
- Immediately just outright hated the play because of the Boston homers. Seriously, worst in hockey by a wide margin.
- Looking forward to some sort of backlash, either on Lucic, Miller, or both, but there shouldn't be. Tape describing why it was dumb. Done.
Yippee, the Canucks are up 2-0 on the Boston Bruins
I think it was assumed nearly any team coming out of the West would handle the Eastern Champs, especially the Bruins. The Bruins are the Canucks sans offense. Which is to say: the Bruins are a team held together by a goaltender who is great right up until they choke ferociously. Canucks held serve, and it will be interesting to see if Luongo still has some weak ones left in him. If not, congrats, you've won your first cup in 40 seasons, pat yourself on the back
The funniest thing about this is your thinly veiled inferiority complex that beckons you to come post on a RED WINGS board about the Canucks. Its appropriate that you sound EXACTLY like a CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS fan. Enjoy your "dynasty" haha.
Jiri Hudler never came back from Russia. You said it well, he worked up from GR, played well despite his size and then the summer of 2009. Waited it out, handcuffing the Wings in free agency, left, and came back supposed to be a difference maker and failed miserably. Last night was possibly his worst game yet even when you don't mention the clumsy blind-siding of an actually effective player in Dan Cleary. He was called upon to take on big minutes, especially with the extra man and between him and Rafalski, managed to render all Red Wings powerplays worthless.
I agree with the firing squad comment. Either way, give me Miller, Eaves, or Draper any day, and I have no idea why we couldn't have played Modano. Still baffles me, but that's Babcock's issue. Trade or waive Hudler, at least with Filppula's contract we get solid defensive skill, more hustle, and equal/greater offensive capability.
I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill in this situation, but nothing gets under my skin like a spot-picking sucker puncher. At the end of Game 4, 5 seconds left, Clowe clocks Abdelkader with several gloved punches right off the draw, then proceeds to lay into him with more as the clueless linesman tries to tie up Abdelkader. This is the kind of crap that I believe has no place in the game of hockey and should be cracked down on. I'm pro fighting, pro nastiness, but this premeditated cheapshot crap is infuriating. Both players got double minors for roughing on the scorecard and that was that. The way I see it, that is the exact spirit of the "instigator in the last minutes equals automatic suspension" rule (the one conveniently overrided in 2009 when Malkin jumped Z). And then I'm reading an article about Lidstrom on MLive and I see this in the notes:
Sharks forward Ryane Clowe picked a fight with Justin Abdelkader following a faceoff at the end of the game and landed numerous punches. But both players received double minors for roughing.
“Just a little scrum,'' Clowe said. “I wish it was (Niklas) Kronwall lined up against me. Oh well.”
So the intent to goon was there in a losing effort due to frustration, he would have liked to go after one of our top two defensemen but he ended up having to settle on Abdelkader.
what about late in the first or early in the 2nd when abdelkader got drilled from behind into the boards? i don't remember who did it to him, but it was about 10 times worse than what bertuzzi actually did.
Thank you! I was watching Versus with the Sharks homer feed (convenient) and saw Abdelkader, perhaps about 3-5 feet from the boards when a Shark took a good run at him between the numbers and Abdelkader was shaken up a bit. Of course the crowd cheered, the refs called it a good play (convenient), and the Sharks homer TV guys didn't mention it. I know Rafalski and Cleary also received a similar run that was a lot worse than the bump Bertuzzi laid.
I by no means thought that the Wings played well for the majority of last night, and some may say the "better team" won, but they won by being gifted powerplays because of inconsistent officiating most likely because they were trailing as the home team. As TSN's Bob McKenzie says all the time "deserves got nothing to do with it". Wish the refs would have decided the Wings "deserved" it in 2006 when they outplayed Edmonton and still lost. Being the "better team" helped them WIN the game, but had it not been for the refs, they never would have TIED the game.
The refs let the Sharks hit numbers and aim high all night, not whistling jack, and then when the game was on the line late, they decided to call something less egregious than any of those in favor of the trailing team, which lead to the tying goal, AFFECTING THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME.
Used to be I would see penalties like that let go all game and think: "good, less penalties, less powerplays, they are letting the players decide it". Nowadays I think: "Let a hooking go on the opposition, the Wings will get called for a hooking to tie it. Missed a high stick drawing blood on the opposition, Wings will get a high stick to lose it. Let Holmstrom get slashed, cross-checked, punched outside the crease all game....."
Inconsistent (convenient) officiating ruins games, and it ruined one last night.
I'm not sure what his name is and I don't have the time/give-a-damn to look up his name, but we all know Boston's TV announcer to be one of the worst EVER. The often over-dramatic, always ignorant homer is laughable to hear in the background of Bruins highlights. But it gets worse....
Haha... What a bunch of bullcrap. "We're worried about the safety of our players." You should probably be more worried about that deal you made with the devil.
Headshots, horrible/suspicious officiating, cap-circumvention, and Red Wings tradition: NHL pet peeves.
I think its hilarious with all of the other problems in the league, THIS becomes an issue. Holmstrom is practically assaulted in front of the net every night and he is lucky if HE doesn't get a penalty. We are instructing law enforcement to fine FANS?
Five or more octopi on the ice a game, and the Joe STILL has the best ice in the league. Osgood made a great point at the end of the video on MLive. Look at the season finale in Chicago and the game in San Jose last night, there are no standards for the conditions of the ice. I don't think I saw the puck lay flat once after the first period last night. Lets talk about that.
Which is more likely to cause injury to a player: a) dozens of slashes and crosschecks, b) toe-picking on poor ice conditions because Celine Dion and the Bulls had a back-to-back the night before, c) octopus gunk
Hint: the answer is C.
We should have a pool and bet on it with the proceeds to go to help pay fines.
Franzen has been suspect all season. He doesn't skate, he doesn't drive the net, if he doesn't have a shot at a high-slot wrister he seems not to care at all and gives up on the play. He has been the biggest disappointment this season by far, in my opinion.
This is a guy who has the job security of an elite 40+ goal, 70+ point power-forward, but until this season he has relied on potential, the what-if of a full, healthy season. Well here we are, full healthy season, and he phones it in. I say it as much as anyone, regular season is nothing compared to the playoffs, and we've yet to see how he'll play this season, but the trend doesn't look good.
Coming into this season I was a huge Mule fan, thought it was really his time to shine and he has played completely dull. He tends to score his goals 2+ at a time and then drop off the map for a chunk of the schedule. I can't say he has really helped the Wings win many at all this season. Also remember that he had a huge 5-goal night - which was equal parts skill, luck, and "wow, I scored, maybe I should play like I actually give a damn" - and without that he is sitting at 22 goals on the season. When 18% of your total goals are scored in one game of an 82 game schedule, and you don't have the playmaking and defensive ability/effort of Zetterberg or Datsyuk, you might be playing below your pay-grade.
Something has got to change pretty quick, and stay that way, or else this is going to be a long 12 years. If he is phoning it in during his prime, what happens in 3 or 4 years?
Seriously? First off, the Hawk were without "Wings-Killer" Patrick Sharp, and secondly, what exactly did you see in this game that I didn't that would give you any indication that Detroit could beat Chicago, because I thought they pretty much outplayed Detroit from the first minute to the last. And I won't resort to blaming the refs. A. Bert deserved to be thrown out, and B. that was a penalty on Zetterberg.
Listen, I don't want to sound like I'm putting the Wings down, because they are still an elite team... and my team... but I just think Chicago is better. They're younger, faster, and more creative. They do everything on the powerplay and in the open ice that I am always screaming for the Wings to do. But hey, spin anyway you want. Yes, Datsyuk makes a lot of difference... but really, too much difference, if you ask me. This team shouldn't depend on one player as much as Detroit seems to depend on Datsyuk. And its not like Detroit had nothing to play for. Do you really want to open a series with San Jose in their house after last season? I don't