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Echolalia

Member Since 21 Mar 2007
Online Last Active Today, 06:47 PM
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#2537943 10/1 Exhibition GDT : Pittsburgh Penguins at Red Wings, 7:30 EST

Posted by Echolalia on Today, 06:45 PM

sigh, Kindl already losing his man at the blue line and allowing a mini 2 on 1


I like the scheme of our powerplay so far this year.  They're running a 1-3-1, but the net front presence has their stick wide of the net, almost behind the goal line in that soft area, which provides an interesting pass option for the guy on the boards, if the player can be strong enough on the puck to bring it to the front of the net.




#2537862 Are the wings underrated?

Posted by Echolalia on Yesterday, 05:24 PM

 
If you've already admitted that he just did what any other coach out do (standard practice), which you have, then it doesn't make sense to say that nobody else could do it.  It's a contradictory statement.  The key variable is the execution.  Which is on the players.

Attempting standard practice (or any practice) and successfully executing it has just as much to do with the coach and his motivational skills, practice regimes, interpersonal relationships, ability to teach, develop, etc etc as it does the players successfully carrying out their responsibilities, so I will fundamentally disagree with you there.


#2537860 Are the wings underrated?

Posted by Echolalia on Yesterday, 04:40 PM

 
He had them playing a style of game that leads many less-skilled teams to limited success.  I agree.  That doesn't make him "heroic", or a "genius".  Many other coaches have used a similar strategy to have limited success in the past.  Since when does adopting standard practice make someone heroic? 
 
The true "heroes" last season were a bunch of kids taking a team on their backs and outperforming expectations night in and night out.  NOBODY, including our coach and GM, thought that Nyquist or Tatar were capable of what they did.  Let alone Sheahan, Jurco, Glendening. 
 
But all hail Mike Babcock because he was forced to focus more heavily on defense given that his offensive stars were hurt.  Nobody else would have ever thought of that.
 
Mike Babcock is a good coach.  Evidence of that is 2003, 2008, and 2009.  Not 2014. 


Adopting standard practice is heroic when everyone has written off your roster as a bunch of patches and bandaids that have no business making the playoffs, and you still find a way in. As I mentioned above, Trotz failed to successfully adopt standard practice last year and his roster was more competent. Same thing with Tippett and just about every coach in the NHL who didn't make the playoffs. Babs got further than every team below the Wings despite having less proven talent than each of those teams. And as I already alluded to, there's more to it that just telling your roster to play within a certain system. A large chunk of our roster had little to no NHL experience. They hadn't played the roles that Babcock expected them to play in the past. He had to have everyone on the same page, and buying into the system, and help a lot of these kids grow into competent NHL players. He also had to do with without many of our on-ice leaders present to help ease the transition.
The rest of your post seems like you're implying that I don't think the kids deserve much credit in getting us to the playoffs, which is incorrect. I mentioned a few posts above that Nyqvist's streak was an anomaly, and without that anomaly the Wings don't make the playoffs. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Tatar leading by example and showing the amount of heart that he did. I don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Sheahan and Jurco stepping up, or Gus when Jimmy was faltering. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs with anyone else behind the bench.

And I think were at the point in the debate where both sides have said their thoughts, and we're both content not budging.


#2537857 Are the wings underrated?

Posted by Echolalia on Yesterday, 03:50 PM

 
That completely ignores that fact that we lost more close games than we won.  Look at our dismal overtime and shootout record.  If keeping games close was such a brilliant strategy you would think we'd have won more of those eh?
 
Edited for accuracy:  We lost more close game, but not "many" more close games. 

So what if they lost more close games than not? That doesn't discredit the fact Babcock had the team playing a style of hockey that gave them a chance to win on most nights. Sometimes you get the bounces, or a kid gets a hot streak, sometimes you regress to the the mean and the team with more skill actually wins.


Also, trapping your way to victory isn't some sort of Babcockian master stroke.  Teams without a lot of skill have done it for years.  The New Jersey Devils organization has (and continues to have) considerable success with that strategy.  As has Dave Tippet and the Coyotes, and Barry Trotz with the Predators.  That's what teams without a lot of skill players do.  Yet when Babcock does it, he's a genius who "heroically" coached the no skilled Red Wings to a first round playoff loss. 

I hope you can identify more strategy than just trapping, kip. You're better than that. Babs had everyone back checking hard, supporting the puck tightly, playing on the right side of the puck at all times, even if it meant less chances for an odd-man rush in our favor. The team was playing a soft swarm in the defensive zone pretty effectively, and doing a good job keeping the puck along the perimeter most nights. They've been relieving deep zone pressure by going up the middle for years and other teams are just now starting to adapt that strategy as well. In the offensive zone players are rarely caught deep on a turnover. And again, many of the guys playing last year started in the AHL and thus didn't have any experience playing under Babcock, so I imagine there was an added variable for adjusting to playing under a new coach and a new system, with a new role.
And just for the record, the three teams you mentioned who also play the trap effectively failed to make the playoffs last year, despite a healthier roster than the Wings.


#2537850 Are the wings underrated?

Posted by Echolalia on Yesterday, 02:59 PM

 
Bobcock's system was designed to get unsustainably high offensive production out of one guy over a period of about 25 games, and then for that exact same player to completely disappear for the remaining 10-12 games?  Come on?
 
Babcock's system had very little to do with Nyquist's run...as evidenced by the fact that not another player in that same system has ever produced anything like that before or since.  And that includes players like Brendan Shanahan, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Johan Franzen, and Marian Hossa. 

You're interpreting my post incorrectly.
Babcock's system allowed a bunch of AHL players, bottom six forwards, bottom three defensmen, and Kronwall to keep games close and competitive against NHL talent on a nightly basis. If it's only a one goal game, Nyquist, or Tatar, or whomever has a chance to play hero. If it's a two or three goal game, it doesn't matter if Nyqvist has the hot streak, because the Wings are still losing more games than not.
Nyqvist's run was an anomaly that any coach would take advantage of, but most coaches wouldn't be in a position to get a win out of that anomaly with the roster Babcock was given on most nights.


#2537846 Are the wings underrated?

Posted by Echolalia on Yesterday, 02:18 PM

 
Point taken about the games played part.  You're right there.
 
Holland had no problem waiving Samuelsson, Eaves, and Tootoo once Babs' decided he didn't want them.  It took him 26, 25, and 11 games respectively to figure that out.  I realize that Holland makes the personnel moves, but please stop acting like Babs has no say whatever in which team hits the ice.  You act like Babs was just begging for Nyquist and Holland had his fingers in his ears yelling no.  That didn't happen.  Remember "tie goes to the veteran"?  I do. 
 
Also, none of that negates the fact that nothing Babs' did last year was "heroic".  Which was my original point.  He put an obvious player on an obvious line, and that player produced at an unsustainably high level to drag the team into the playoffs. 

Nyqvist played excellently and definitely beyond what anyone was expecting him to do, but he was also playing in a system that Babcock ser up for the Wings to maximize their chances in. Nyqvist was able to win games because the system he was a part of kept the games close despite the Wings' obvious defensive weaknesses personelle-wise. Theres a lot more to the process than putting the obvious player on the obvious line. Nyqvist was a big part of the Wings getting into the playoffs, but let's not pretend that was all in spite of Babcock's work behind the bench.


#2537774 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 09:11 PM

Mrazek is making shutouts his thing. 3 shutouts in 9 games last year. I don't know what he's played in the preseason this year but at least one full shutout so far.


#2537712 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 08:29 PM

What are the odds we could give the Quincey bashing a rest...ya know...since he's not even in the lineup tonight.

You're asking a lot


#2537684 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 07:59 PM

I gotta say, Mrazek is solid as a rock.  The kid comes out 15 feet to challenge the shooter.




#2537678 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 07:54 PM

Nestrasil with some sexy sauce on that pass to Jensen




#2537661 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 07:45 PM

Smith with a savvy play on a 5 on 3 drawing a penalty




#2537574 Babcock " I dont think it will be my final year here"

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

I think the shelf life argument is true to an extent but I don't know if it's really applicable for the Wings, at least right now. Many of the players on the Wings squad are fairy new to working with Babcock, so I don't see how his message would go stale on them. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Cleary I could see the argument being more valid because they've been around for a while, but the above players seem to buy into the system pretty well (maybe not Franzen but who knows what's going on on his head half the time), so I don't think Babcock has lost his swagger in the lockerroom.


#2537569 2014 Preseason Thread

Posted by Echolalia on 29 September 2014 - 12:12 PM

http://www.mlive.com...m_says_fac.html

Helm says his groin is feeling good


#2537303 Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

Posted by Echolalia on 25 September 2014 - 04:06 PM

I definitely think Red Wings fans place a higher premium on skill than most other fanbases, but do not forget that despite Holland's position on fighting, the Cup winning team's all had a physical presence. Some more than others. For example, the modern era Red Wings have yet to win a Cup without Darren McCarty in the lineup.

I don't think anyone believes that toughness and a strong physical presence isn't a good thing to have on a team. The issue pops up with how different folks define what toughness is. I personally find value in players who are strong in the corners and can protect the puck well, and retrieve loose pucks amidst slashes and cross checks and the like. I find value in players who can effectively drive the net and hold their ground there. I find value in players who can physically wear down on the opposition, through hard hits, relentlessness, good speed and pressure. I don't find much value (other than for entertainment and personal sadistic gain) in players fighting other players for hits or past issues, legal or otherwise. I don't think it deters anything (in fact I think it potentiates the issue, as Kip alluded to), and just slows the game down. But that's my personal stance on the issue. Obviously there are plenty of folks who think that Downey's presence on the roster gave the team the courage to win the game, or Drake's willingness to fight kept the opposition honest, whatever that means. I just don't buy that aspect of it.


#2537098 9/23 Exhibition GDT : Red Wings 1 at Blackhawks 2 (OT)

Posted by Echolalia on 23 September 2014 - 09:11 PM

Franzen does look good
I feel our forward situation is good this year aside from injuries. I feel one of Smith in Kindl will be sitting for a guy from GR

 

I can see Kindl and Lashoff dropping in the depth chart for someone like Oulette, or if the Wings are desperate for some points from the back end, Sproul (although I think the former is more NHL ready).  Smith makes some bonehead plays on the ice from time to time, but he's definitely a level above Kindl and Lashoff, and has a higher ceiling than either as well.