GoWings1905

Or you could just not sign Quincey at all, have space for Alfie this season and more flexibility in cap space going forward. Just because Quincey's deal was "only" two years doesn't make it any more acceptable. It was unnecessary and overpayment -- I would have gladly taken a better player for longer term. Clearly, it was feasible or Holland would have never bothered offering. Alfie will be back regardless, if he wants. The Wings aren't in any position to turn down a 50 point player, if Alfie is deemed healthy enough.

You are aware he offered a ton of money for Niskanen and more than Boyle received from the Rangers? Just because Holland doesn't know why free agents aren't coming here doesn't mean he hasn't been trying. Besides, how do you not classify Quincey as an overpriced UFA?

I'm not following it either, unless it's just a simple comparison that both are defensive minded d-men. The similarities really end there, though. DeKeyser is a terrific skater and puck mover. Stuart was physical and a great shot blocker on the PK. Two pretty different players and skill sets, IMO.

Give Babs either of those rosters and he could easily accomplish that. Sutter is a good coach, but Babs is far superior to Q.

Injuries for the 6th consecutive season, I'm sure.

I like Babs a lot and this was a good interview, but I have no trust left him in whatsoever when he says "the best players will play." It does sound though like Babs really wants to find a way to integrate the kids on defense sooner rather than later. Which who can blame him when his other options include Quincey, Kindl and Lashoff? Babs also said the Wings didn't hand out any bad contracts in free agency. Out on the lake when the Quincey deal happened?

Ken Holland could start doing his job better and then there wouldn't be so much criticism aimed at the organization.

Hindsight? We have last season and beyond as proof that Quincey and Cleary are poor decisions. But yeah, since the Wings have had success over five years ago now, that makes them completely off-limits to criticism and questioning management. Nothing worse than when people try to tell others how to be a fan.

HSJ is the absolute worst. Ken Holland might as well be writing her articles for her. I do believe the Wings mainstream media is very reluctant to criticize the organization. Everyone, and I mean everyone elsewhere, blasted both the Quincey and Cleary deals. All we got from the Wings media was more excuse making and typical unwillingness to ever question Holland's decision making.

Nah, who needs Jurco when Luke Glendening can play 18 minutes per game because he "competes".

GWG against Anaheim in Game 7 of 2009. That goal really epitomized Cleary during his best days. Going to the tough areas of the ice and just working hard in front of the net. Those are the good things I want to remember about Cleary that Holland keeps ruining by bringing him back. Another thing I recall from that game is the Ducks tied it at 3 in the third on an extremely flukey play. Ericsson stepped on a broken stick behind the net, lost the puck and Bobby Ryan ended up scoring. Those were fun times. Cleary really was exceptional during the 2009 playoffs.

Maybe next year or two years from now when the prospects from Grand Rapids start arriving. Until then, it's a very weak defense. Limited puck movers, very little offensive ability and prone to poor decision making defensively.

I feel so bad for whichever new assistant coach ends up with the defense. Talk about a near impossible task.

No, nor was my previous post a doomsday prediction. Expecting the Wings to be entirely healthy just isn't realistic. The core players are a year older and all have recent injury histories. Last season was flukey in terms of man games lost and likely won't be repeated, but the Wings haven't maintained much consistent health as a team over the past five years. You also said to ignore the defense. Which apparently is also Holland's motto, but a tough task considering how bad they were and how the Wings plan on using that same group again this season.

The former is highly unlikely and the latter is going to be tough to ignore.

It has the potential and likelihood of being $2.5 million for a player that produced all of eight points last season. Tomas Jurco scored eight goals alone in about 15 fewer games than Cleary and was a big reason why the Red Wings made the playoffs at all. If your argument is that this deal is somehow a bargain for Cleary, I completely disagree. Brendan Morrow and Dany Heatley got less money than Cleary too, so there's two examples of (better) veteran players that were more affordable than Cleary. Cleary got his chance last season to go out with his head held high (a mistake a year ago too, no less) at the expense of the Red Wings MVP. There's plenty to be upset about. Hence, 24 pages of this thread and not many positive vibes going around.

They have a combined four years on the job. Stevie's team went to the conference final in that span and Tampa Bay might be the favorite in the East heading into next season. Nill got Dallas into the playoffs in the West and has done a great job adding two huge pieces through trades already. Holland just continues to make lateral moves since those two have left and the Red Wings have no direction under his leadership. Too bad Holland didn't stick to his word and retire when Nick did, so Nill would have gotten the GM job in Detroit before leaving.

Hossa is an elite defensive forward. I have never heard anyone call him lazy around hockey. Hossa is always creating something and noticeable on the ice, even when he isn't scoring. There's no comparison to Franzen. Besides, that fanbase started watching hockey in 2010, so that's probably not the most accurate gauge of a player's worth.

At this point, is there anyone left that wants to see Holland's contract extended after this season? I think the organization just needs a fresh start all the way around. Unfortunately, Babs included, but he's gone no matter what.

$2.5 million for a player with the same point total last season as Luke Glendening, who couldn't be less of an offensive threat. Not to mention, the other areas of the game where Glendening contributes and Cleary doesn't. Cleary will make the team and play ten games -- I think that's almost a guarantee with Holland running the show and Babs saying veterans get first crack, even though Cleary already lost his job to the kids last season. Ken Holland could have done nothing this summer and it would have been better than the mess he has now created. I know I'm definitely more excited to watch Kyle Quincey and Dan Cleary over Ryan Sproul and Tomas Jurco.

Even with Alfie returning, there is/should be room for Jurco. Z, Pav, Franzen, Nyquist, Weiss, Tatar, Alfie, Sheahan, Abby, Helm and Miller are all locks. Who is better than Jurco for that 12th forward spot? You don't need Glendening or Andersson centering the fourth line if Weiss is back. Besides, why not have a third line of Tatar - Sheahan - Jurco when those three had a ton of success playing together already? There isn't much exciting about this roster going into the season, but that line is a bright spot. To me, Jurco should be playing for the Red Wings no matter what. I don't believe it makes much sense for Drew Miller or Luke Glendening to be out there at Jurco's expense, let alone Dan Cleary.

I'm not mad at Cleary either. None of this is his fault and who would turn down the opportunity presented to him by Holland? My biggest gripe is we all know Cleary is going to get the benefit of the doubt again come September. There really shouldn't even be a competition, though -- Tomas Jurco has already proven himself to be an NHL player (certainly better than Cleary) and yet there's a pretty good chance he starts in Grand Rapids just because the option is there. If it's Cleary competing for a roster spot with Andersson or Glendening then whatever, but we all know the fallout here will be Jurco going down just like Nyquist last season and Tatar being a healthy scratch for the first ten games. That's where Holland has continuously lied to all of us. "The kids are ready, we are confident they can play in Detroit" and they don't until massive injuries occur. Then they come up and do prove their worth only to be relegated to the same absurd treatment for washed up veterans. Jurco shouldn't have to beat out Cleary for a roster spot in September. He already did that last season. That's why this signing is so ridiculous. I don't care about the money. I do care when the GM of the team continues to lie about icing the best team possible.

That loyalty has been real appealing to free agents too. All it has done recently is keep internal washed up veterans on the roster long past their usefulness. Every quote Holland has made lately does give the impression he's out of touch or trying to sell something nobody believes except his mouthpiece St. James.

I wouldn't have much to laugh about either if I was lacing up the skates next to Dan Cleary and Kyle Quincey every game.

There is no positive to this, unless you are Helene St. James. First off, just because you have cap space doesn't mean blowing it on players that aren't going to help the team is prudent. Even for a year, it is completely not necessary to keep Cleary around. The Wings have an abundance of veteran leadership; all of which are still capable of playing hockey. Cleary doesn't add anything to the locker room, that isn't already there in the likes of Zetterberg, Kronwall, Datsyuk, probably Alfredsson too. Second, Dan Cleary is not reverting to previous form. 35 years old with no knees and other injury history is not an ideal reclamation project. I loved Cleary, but he hasn't been remotely useful in years because his style of play eventually broke him down physically. You don't get that back with age and some time at the gym. The simple fact is the Red Wings have superior talent already on the roster that are now at risk of losing their spot because of Cleary. Not to mention, there is a precedent set from not even a year ago that the Wings are willing to demote players to Grand Rapids at the expense of veterans with nothing of value to offer the team. Realistic is knowing Ken Holland's history and realizing how this is going to play out. None of which makes the Red Wings a better team come September. I don't quite understand what making a trade has to do with Cleary either. Much like the Quincey signing, Holland's best course of action was to do nothing. Instead, in typical fashion, he made a bad situation worse by clinging to his fascination with players he knows and washed up veterans. I can somewhat deal with striking out on free agents, but making senseless moves for the sake of doing something is far worse than just letting everything be. Again, I ask what is the direction of the Red Wings organization under Ken Holland right now? It obviously isn't youth movement, as many times as Holland prefers to lie to us otherwise. Holland is insulting the fan base with claims of letting the kids play when every move he makes indicates the opposite entirely. It isn't win now either or else we aren't all discussing Dan Cleary re-signing. So that leads me to believe extending the playoff streak and lingering in mediocrity is the preferred vision of the front office. Yeah, Cleary will look terrific not being able to skate in our five game first round loss.