BringHomeTheCup!

Cute, but not quite true. The goal to assist ratio has nothing to do with how good the player is. What I was getting at is the fact that Thornton isn't a scoring threat. He is a set up man, and to call him a power forward is laughable. Furthermore, as much as I dislike Crosby, you have to give it up to the guy. If he had half the linemates Thornton has, it'd be something special to watch. No one sucks more Crosby cock than my buddy, so I hear it all the time. One thing that is true, the Reckin' Ball and Malone just don't cut it as linemates for Crosby. Insert even a second rate scorer, like say Satan, and he will put up huge numbers with Crosby. But that's for another thread.

Seriously? Williams wasn't doing anything for the Wings. He was overpaid. Remember, up until he got hurt, Calder was on a tear. Also, if nothing else, the Wings gained some cap room which they can now use to improve the team. In a salary cap era, cap space is a commodity.

I wouldn't put Thornton in the elite group. As someone else said, he needs players around him to be good. Vinny can take over a game on his own. Yes, they are both big guys, but when was the last time you Thornton drop the gloves, or throw a bone crushing hit? It doesn't happen. He is not a power forward. However, in Vinny's case, he does hit, and boy does he fight. Anyone remember the SCF when Vinny fought Iggy? You just don't see that type of play from Thornton. Vinny is a much more balanced player, look at his numbers, he doesn't put up 96 assist and 29 goals. Vinny is perennially almost a 50/50 player (not 50g 50a, but percentage of each). If Thornton doesn't have good goal scores around him, he doesn't produce. Plain and simple. The thing you are forgetting about Thornton is he doesn't have a shot, and he isn't a deke specialist. He is a fantastic set up man, but he will never be a goal scorer. I'd be surprised if he ever hit 40 goals. Vinny plays with St. Louis and Prospal. To call either of those guys a set up man is ridiculous. Someone else already touched on this, but IF a trade were to happen to get Vinny in Detroit, the starting point is either Hank or Pav. Trading away Pav would be the right move on paper as the salaries would be the biggest factor. However, Pav would fit much better with Vinny than Hank. Pav is an unbelievable set up man, Vinny is a natural goal scorer.

The problem is that the Wings second line IS broken. In the NHL you NEED to have second line scoring help, if you don't, you won't go very far in the playoffs. Sure, if you are satisfied with great regular seasons, and playoff stumbles, leave this team alone. The Wing should finish in the top 5 in the West, and if they are lucky they will win 2 playoff series. And just for reference, this year 6 different Wings players have scored on the PP, ZDH, Cleary, Hudler, and Rafalski. ZDH has combined for 11, and the other 3 have netted 7. So where are the 'other lines scoring on the PP'? You can't really count the 2 Rafalski has netted on the PP, as he is a dman, so that leaves Cleary's 3 and Hudler's 2. That's 5 out of 16. The Wings need someone to come in and be able to provide some help for ZDH in the playoffs. Back to the topic, Sudin is a sexy pickup, but highly unlikely. He has the NTC, and has been pretty vocal about not wanting to go anywhere.

It still doesn't make any sense. Yes, Howe played a rough style of hockey, but that doesn't account in how and why this term came to be. Anyone know the story?

That is very interesting. Makes you wonder how and why the phrase was coined.

I can't believe this thread has gone this far without the mention of the Sutter family.

Here's the thing, I really don't care what anyone thinks about me, I've said what I thought, and I stick to it. I did provide facts as to why I think Lindros is a bust, no one has come back with anything except that he was a MVP, once. I've never said Lindros wasn't good, or that he didn't have a few great years. I have no personal hatred for the guy, in fact, I think he gets a bad rep out of the whole "I don't want to play for Quebec" thing. While I'm not the oldest tool in the shed, I've still seen more than my share of hockey. I've played at a high level, probably higher than most here. It's fun to read your generic responce. By saying that I think Lindros is a bust because he never won a Cup, shows that you haven't read any of my posts. I never said that he was a bust simply because he didn't win a Cup. Does that add to it, yes it does. Like it or not, it makes a difference. If Crosby doesn't win a Cup, is he a bust? I've already answered that. Go back and READ.

I don't think the soft cap would solve anything. A guy like Mike I would spend that extra $$ anyhow.

The problem with your side of the argument is you can't back anything up. I've backed up what I said with stats, and facts. Again, Lindros, never won a Cup, and was invisible in his only SCF appearance. He never won a scoring title, ect. But all I hear from your side is he won an MVP. Big deal, he had a good year He wasn't the most dominate player in Pennsylvania at any point in his career, much more the less the entire league. Top 10 player during that 5 year span, I could see that being argued. I've never said he wasn't a good player. I've never said he didn't have a few good years. The problem is that he wasn't the dominate player throughout his career that he could have been, all injuries aside. Great players adapt to injuries Yzerman, and Lemieux both did it. It's something that seperates the highly gifted and talented players from the legends, the Lindros's from the Lemieux's, the ability to overcome adversity no matter what shape it comes in. In response to your personal insults: A) I have no personal bias against Lindros. I read an article on TSN, so I thought I'd start a thread about it. Silly me thinking it might be something to talk about. B)How do you know I didn't think this through? You are quick to judge. I haven't gotten my ass handed to me. The great thing about this debate is it's all about opinion, and opinions can't be wrong. Again, you have provided nothing to sway my opinion on Lindros. All you (the collective you) can say is "if you don't remember how great he was you must not have been a fan until after '97." I don't see why it's so hard to swallow that Lindros was a bust. Maybe it's the definition of bust, here is mine. A bust would be someone who not only had all the hype around him, but also all the tools to live up to that hype. For some legit reason, he didn't come close to living up to the hype, or touching his potential. (Just for reference, I do believe Grigs was a bust) Just one more question, why do you always turn threads into personal attacks? It's one thing to be a jackass in your posts, something you do very well, but to take it to a personal level just shows you have nothing else to add. So what's the point? What's next, are you going to tell me my mother wears combat boots? Big deal, it snows a lot in Michigan. Even so, why do I care what kind of boots my mother wears? Grow up, and stop getting your insults at your local elementary school, you are going to end up on one of those lists that you don't want to be on.

That's a completly different fish to fry. Who is better than who? Gretzky or Lemieux? Howe or Gretzky? Orr or Lidstrom? Roy or Dryden? This isn't a question of whether Lindos was better than another player. This is a question, was he a bust. I say yes. He didn't accomplish anything he was supposed to. EDIT: I never said Lindros was a bust because of his injuries. Maybe that's what slowed him down, maybe not. Regardless, he was able to come back from his injuries, unlike Orr.

Jagr to NYR happened before the new CBA was in place. The old CBA didn't have any rules against this. I don't understand how this would hurt anything, or as suggested above, encourage salary inflation. I see it as a great way for a team like Tampa Bay to acquire a goaltending fix without spending too much.

It's hard for me to believe the NYR's are more valuable than Montreal, and Ottawa. Much more the less Detroit.

Both Orr and Dryden lead their respective teams to multiple Cups. Like it or not, that does make a huge difference. Regardless, both Orr and Dryden were dominate for more than the (at best) 5 years Lindors 'dominated' the NHL.

All hail the great GST!! He has spoken and it is now law, and forever shall it be. Asking be to be a sheep is exactly what you are doing. Your exact words "Either you are right, or everyone else in this thread is right." You are saying that I should think Lindros was a phenom simply because you and everyone else seem to. Sorry, I have a brain, I use it, I form my own thoughts and opinions, not just what some sports writer or other people feed me. I have no personal bias against Lindros. It's my opinion he is a bust. And one of the biggest busts of all time. Why is it always so hard for you to see things from a different point of view? I guess that's just one of the draw backs to having your head so far up your ass. Lindros is a bust. If you want to compare Lindros and Crosby, fine. Crosby is living up to the hype. In fact, he is blowing it out of the water. Personally, I'm not a Crosby fan, but he is doing things Wayne couldn't do in an era that is much harder to do things in. If Crosby had a few good years, then fell off the map, I'd be first in line to call him a bust. That is exactly what Lindros did. Regardless if it was because of injuries, or whatever, he just couldn't maintain the pace. No one on this board can say for sure that it was the concussions that caused Lindros' career to stall. It would be a wise educated guess. However, no one knows for sure. He could have pulled a Daige and just not wanted it anymore. Lindros commanded the attention of a superstar, but he never delivered. 0 cups. 0 scoring titles. He had 2 seasons in which he placed top 10 in scoring. Remeber this was a guy who was supposed to own the league. He never did. B-U-S-T

Thornton is by no means a power forward. He is a setup man. A fantastic one at that, but he isn't in the same class as Vinny when it comes to scoring. Hell, I'd take Draper over Thornton if you need a goal scored! That is unless it's an empty net, Thornton is pretty good with those.

Baaa Baaaa Baaaaaa We are all sheep, follow the leader. You are right GST, because the majority thinks it is right, it must be!! How could I have ever used my mind to form thoughts of it's own?! I'm so ashamed.

4 PPG average? That isn't even 2 my friend, it's much closer to 1.5 PPG. Here is my point. Lindros was supposed to be the Next One. Better than Wayne. He never lived up to any of that hype. He won an MVP, big deal. The Pearson is more impressive. However, he had just a few good season. Yes injuries slowed him down. But why is that an excuse for him, but not for a guy like Stefan? Both are busts because they didn't live up to potential or hype. Yes, Stefan is a bigger bust, but a bust is a bust.

- If you had to replace one Russian Five player for Pavel Datsyuk to play on that line, who would it be? To reduce the confusion on the score sheet, Kozlov. - If Chris Chelios retired before he went to Detroit, would he still be deserving of the HOF (You know that's where he'll be)? Yes, he was a top 5 dman in the league with numerous awards to his credit. - Is Sergei Fedorov a definite top 5 for all time defensive forwards? Yes, no other forward could play both ends of the ice at such a high level. He put a lot of dmen to shame. - Number 9 is probably the most legendary number in NHL history, therefore who is more responsible for this, Maurice Richard or Gordie Howe? Both. Gordie more here in the states, and Richard up north. - If... sorry... WHEN the Wings win the cup in '08, who should Lidstrom hand it to first? Hank. - Henrik Zetterberg is on pace for 137 points, how close will he be from actually accomplishing this feat? I'd say if he gets 100, that would be a feat. - If Igor Larionov and Pavel Datsyuk played together, who would be the goal scorer and who would be the playmaker? Pav, Igor is one of the best setup men of all time. And I think Pav has a better shot. - Zetterberg re-signing with Detroit when he becomes UFA is highly likely... How much will he sign for? More than Pav, but less than Heatley. - Rafalski or Schneider? Raffy, he has more playoff experience, and is better defensively. - Out of every player on the Red Wings roster, which one is likely to troll LGW from time to time? SirDrake sure is a big fan of Cheli.....

Lindros never lived up to even half of his potential or hype. Yes, injuries played a key part in that, but big deal. If he had enough common sense to skate with his head up, he'd still be playing.

HUH?

I never said he wasn't good. I never said he wasn't feared. I never said he didn't produce. But he wasn't the most dominate player in the 90's. He was a good player. Great for a few years, maybe. Was Nolan or Deveraux touted as the Next One? No, they weren't. They were not the franchise saving, game changing players Lindros was supposed to be. And no, Lemieux isn't a bust because he had cancer. He did everything he was supposed to do, and more. Lindros did nothing he was supposed to do.

If we all could take a trip in the way back machine, we'd see that the only player hyped as much or more than Lindros since Lindros is Crosby. Was Yzerman a bust before '97? No. Why? He wasn't supposed to be the Next One. He was simply, another one. I'm not saying Lindros is a bust because he never won a Cup. I am saying that does add to it. On the biggest stage of his career, at the height of his career, the Wings held him to 1 goal (in the last what, 45 seconds of game 4?) in the SCF. He was never able to live up to the hype, or his potential. He is a bust.

I prefer red, I think it looks better when you are there.

Compared to Homer..... You may see it as just the 'stupid All Star game' ,but this is how I see it. A way for borderline fans to get into the game. It's a great opportunity for the NHL to grow the sport, and the product. I would love to see Hank, Vinny, Sid, and AO whored out to promote the game, and see it succeed in bringing in those fence sitting fans.