lomekian

Comparing Z & D to Nyquist and Tatar is not helping anyone. Zetterberg took his great leap forward at the age of 19/20, and by 22 was a more complete player than either of our new kids, and came straight to the NHL on a stacked roster. Similar with Dats, who arrived with less hurrah, but his team-mates (especially one Brett Hull) were very vocal in saying that he would be a star. Of course, both had the advantage of being able to develop under the radar to a degree due to the fact that that roster was bolstered by 6 guys who finished with comfortably over 1000 points, and Larionov who would have done had he been allowed over here before he was. And Chelli. And the grind line. And Homer. Apart from the bottom two pairing on D and in net that was as good a roster as any of us have seen. I would imagine, if Tats and Nike were 3rd liners on a stacked outfit, the transition would be easier. But ultimately anyone hoping our new euro kids will match the twins is only making a rod for their backs. As I've said elsewhere, if you want a comparison, they are basically slightly more talented versions of Slava Kozlov without the same playoff touch. Very good complimentary players who are unlikely to ever be core stars. But for a mid 2nd and a 5th, that's already far more than this organisation has the right to expect.

I think you are being overly dismissive of the Swedish trio. All 3 may yet make decent NHL careers, and Jarnkrok and Backman were very highly thought of until they started to make noise about not being willing to do their two year stint in the AHL. The maximum upside for all 3 is 2nd liner's in the NHL, and to my mind Jarnkrok would be ready for 3rd line duty here, but ultimately they were traded due to their unwillingness to do their time, and because all were made expendable by others passing them on our prospect chart. And they were felt to have value by other GMs..how soon did Jarnkrok get into the preds team? Sadly the players they were traded for turned out to be rentals, but both expressed a desire to stick around before things went sour. Legwand seemed to suddenly lose a step he hasn't got back, and Cole was looking a great fit before injury struck. If the latter can get fit he may come back at the right price? Either way, I agree with the overall sentiment. When prospects who still have some value reach 21-22 and demonstrate that they aren't going to make the top 6 here any time soon, they should be viewed as expendable in the right deal. Like most, I was never happy with the Legwand deal, but appreciate it might have kept the streak going. The cole deal made much more sense, and until his injury looked a good one. But really if we are trading or even in the higher end FA market, we should be looking at guys no older than 32-33, unless they are coming for peanuts or are still great (like Alfie).

While Holland's recent FA record and his over- over-ripening count against him, it is instructive that all other teams or GMs being cited as superior alternatives went through 4-6 years minimum of propping up the rankings, picking in the top 10 and taking part in massive fire sales. While there is little merit in pursuing mediocrity, as long as this team is owned by the prince of pizza, the objective will be to make the playoffs. Its worth noting, that on top of the success of the unevenly weighted pre-salary cap era, Detroit has the longest playoff streak of the salary cap era, and with a roster of a grand total of 3 players who preceded the lockout. While the incredible skill levels of those three have been key, you still have to find 20 other guys minimum every year. We are fast approaching the keep the mediocrity going or burn it down question, but while D & Z are still even at their current diminished levels, that question will have to be deferred. You don't piss trade away one-team potential HOF players at this point of their careers unless they want you to, particularly not if you are team whose primary attraction for FAs is loyalty, respect and a possible job upon retirement. And this is especially the case when only couple of different FAs and better luck with injuries to playoff type players away from a credible playoff run.

To be fair, even when the hype was it its greatest, Smith was projected as top-4 guy with the ability to put up 30-40 points, which might not be a stretch if he actually got any PP time, and in a more run-and-gun (and probably less successful) team, i think he'd produce more. Same with Tatar and Nyquist...for a long time they were seen as possible 2/3 line guys, and it was only really the goose's goal output last year that gave anyone genuine hope beyond that. Certainly RWC (RIP) managed to predict most of the kids that have come through remarkably well, such as Howard being a solid but not brilliant starter, Marchenko being a good 5-6 guy and Sheahan being a 2/3 Center. These are the Kozlovs of old rather than the Federovs...very good players who are ultimately expendable in a good trade. The only real disappointments regarding serious projections of prospects I read were Kindl, Grigorenko and Emmerton. Kindl has all the skill to be a top 4 guy, but sadly none of the calm under pressure, fortitude or physical courage. Grigs never got back after the crash and underestimated what it took to make the NHL. Emmerton was only ever ok at a lot of things, without being NHL standard at anything. Re the coaching issue, Bab's is clearly an excellent coach as squeezing a lot of not much, but too many of our current younger players and potential assets would be better suited to a different system. So either the roster needs some major re-shaping or a new coach may be for the best. Certainly we will not maximise Smith, Kindl, Weiss, Pulks, Nyquist, Tatar in Babcock's systems. If he stays, he's a good enough coach to keep this team going, and the kids 2-3 years away are much more to his taste. If he leaves, some of the current roster may flourish, but overall results may suffer a little.

The Chicago take on the Preds however is a thing of beauty...

I would imagine about 3 /4 of all the fans on here could write a much more scathing and darkly humourous eulogy about the wings than that writer. Bless, it was almost affectionate and sympathetic.

I got lucky..I found the wings from afar when the their previous cup has been with Gordie Howe in the team....but they resolved that within 5 years.....

STILL going on about Hossa!?! You do realise that was 6 years ago. And I don't think anyone thinks Abby is as good as Hossa. Which is partly why he gets paid so much less....

He would be a top 6 player if 1-5 were producing more of late. He looked a little banged up tonight, but for the last 2 months he certainly has been a top 6-er. Time will tell if that's just a hot streak or indicative of a step up...

Don't disagree with that much, but I do think that we have to try to give Pulks a decent run on a line with a playmaker and a piano puller...his last 20 or so AHL games he's at a goal a game, and won the equivalent of the rocket richard with 30 less games than the competition. He struggled a little this year, but came in when the team was struggling. I also think if Franzen does come back, he has shown such brilliant chemistry with Nyquist that you have to play them together. Not holding my breath on seeing him again though. Of course if we manage to trade weiss and hit FA, who knows if we'll have another decent sized body to throw into the mix....

Agreed. Tatar and Nyquist will never be Dats and Z, but they equally are the best goalscorers we have when the euro-twins aren't 100%. If Pulks can translate his game and that shot, and Mantha can step up, either will be relatively expendable in a year, but unless its for a good deal, it doesn't make sense to trade them now. As for the D...its a mystery how playoff Smith and Reg season Smith are so different, but I don't think we should trade him unless part of a package for something obviously better. His wheels on the back end are increasingly important in the modern NHL, and Kronner & Ericsson aren't getting any quicker. As for Kindl, if only someone could give some of Smith's courage and toughness. They are like the cowardly Lion and the scarecrow...but its more plausible for a borderline idiot to eventually get smarter than for a ***** cat to become a tiger...(mixed metaphors I know).

To the mods....apologies for calling people Morons. But it was a general post rather than a specific one, and I think its less offensive than the borderline casual racism that permeates these boards when the team loses. I'll watch my conduct in future, but other posters should remember that DRW has a global fan base, who have to spend twice us much getting any merch and stay up until the early hours to see the team. They should also remember that without European players this team would still be pining for the 50s.

For all those kissing goodbye to Z, I'd preach patience...until February he was really good, and even after that was ok until that bastard in Dallas punched him in the head repeatedly...his play dropped off badly in late march and April, but that's partly because our weakness at the back end meant he spent too much time in the neutral zone rather in their zone. His shooting has disintegrated, but he's still a great passer. If he can get his shot back next year, he could have a renaissance, because he still gets into goalscoring positions.

Lets give them a little longer before we right them off. For 3 or 4 years Dats was almost as bad in the playoffs, and he became one of the best in the world. Hell I vaguely remember the trade Stevie Y conversations. Unless of course we can get a good deal for quality at D! As for Abby and Helm..I think the former has proved himself a 2nd line talent. Helmer should be on the 3rd line, and with a fit Franzen and Cole, that's exactly where he would be.

Ps...Pulks with 5 goals in 3 AHL playoff games. We've got to utilise him better when he comes up next year. Nice to see little bert get one in his playoff debut too. Not on topic, but hey, we could all do with cheering up!

Bollocks. You need Skill and Size. Tampa's best players up front were their smallest. I'm all for getting bigger, but not at the expense of the teams best players. We just got screwed with Franzen getting another couple of headshots after a good start and cole's injury. A blind man can see that we need more skill on the back end, and more speed up front.

Well a series defined by sporadic scoring and piss poor officiating is decided by a terrible non-call in favour of tampa again. A valiant effort by the wings, who ultimately lost this in the last minutes of game 4 following the non calls in that game. Really really really missed Cole and Franzen's size as the series went on. Kindl as expected was excellent today, and Marchenko was solid too, but the Kronwall bulls*** made us overplay different combinations. The NHL wanted us out and got its wish, and now its up to the summer, to see if reinforcements can be found. I still can't believe that Weiss wouldn't have offered more than Jurco, but there we go.

Bloody hell...how many chances have Detroit missed tonight

Icing called for tampa with Glennie winning the race.....sigh

TBL Scores after a loose hand pulls Quincy down behind the RW goal...missed call and a goal for them....go figure.

Wings playing really well. God knows what the outcome will be, but TBL have been riding their luck the last few games.

With Cole and Franzen this team would be seriously deep up front, with probably more good 2 way forwards than any of our rivals. But as I said, were it not for freak injuries, car crashes and heart defects the dynasty could have been another couple of cups deep...

Further proof that officiating in the NHL has gone down the toilet. Borderline questionable hit. No previous record. No injury. Refusal to complain by the opposition. Compare to multiple attempts to injure elsewhere in the playoffs.....

This is an impossible subject to speak definitively about because many of the positive and negative outcomes of a GM's decision are dependent on a range of factors largely beyond their control, so a case by case basis either way is either cherry picking or at best indicative of minor trends. The only real test is overall results and overall comparisons to others. First off, it has to be acknowledged that he inherited a great situation. Stacked roster, no salary cap, devoted fan-base, supportive owner and a ninja European scout. Could do a lot worse. Equally, it has to be recognised that the job he did in extending that situation and improving the infrastructure around him surpassed all expectations. Anyone remember the wings being 'too old' and in terminal decline even before the salary cap was introduced? The wings dropping out of the playoffs within two years has been an annual prediction since the lockout over a decade ago. Hasn't happened. Of course much of that has been dependent on coaching and drafting, neither of which he can take much direct credit for, particularly given our best draft picks have been late round specials. But crucially, the primary aspect of management is to find good people you trust and empower them with the trust and conditions to do their job well. This is perhaps, along with his patience, his biggest strength as a GM. One also has to agree that although the post Lidstrom era has been less fun than hoped due to Suter's 50/50 choice being dictated by his ill advised decision to join his mate in the mountains, the Red Wings have done a remarkable job at circumnavigating the primary objectives of the combination of draft and salary cap, that being parity and a rotation of who makes the playoffs. Of course, a quicker route to the big prizes is to fail badly in good draft years, but the roster has remained too strong for this to be appropriate. The over-riping development model, for the most part has been crucial to sustaining this. Because the team has remained at least partially competitive, it has been important to only rely on prospects when they are ready. If the team was in worse shape, they'd be up sooner. And yes, the late round gems have kept on coming , from D & Z to the comparative huge successes (ie statistically massively overachieving compared for the norm for their draft location) of Hudker, Flip, Ericsson (and even Meech to a degree!) in '02, Quincey in '03 (though waiving him was such a poor choice at the time, he has eventually proved his worth), Franzen in '04, Abdelkader to a degree but certainly Helm in '05, (06 had real talent, but none made it here for different reasons), Andersson in '07 (just about..), Nyquist in '08, Tatar in '09 (and Jensen and Ferraro and Callahan may yet get there), Mrazel, Pulks in '10. Subsequent years have a very good chance to be equally successful or better, but its too early to say. Howard (goalies are different!), kopecky, Smith & Sheahan are about par or just below at this point, and only really Kindl, Mccollum and maybe Emmerton are real disappointments. Trading & FA is a bit more sketchy, but its important to balance recent years with earlier ones. Every Legwand (which if you prioritise the streak is a wash), Weiss, Tootoo, Modano, and the later Sammy/Cleary versions or even Robert Lang or Cujo if you want to be harsh is more than countered by Cleary/Sammy first time, Rafalski, Chelios, Larianov (second time I think was KH), Hull, Hasek (both!), Lucky Luc, Brad Stuart, Alfie, even drew Miller! Also worth noting that barring the Robert Lang deal where Washington ended up with Mike Green, the wings have won on every single trade for draft picks or exchanging picks in the last 16 years. The only other exception was a pick that was eventually used for Patrick Sharp, but that changed hands about 4 times before the draft in which it was used! The more recent trend is not that encouraging, but how many of the poor trades or FA signings have hamstrung us? Weiss is the only albatross, unless you decide that Howard's contract is as well, which is hardly a forgone conclusion given pre-injury performance levels. Of course the Franzen/Hossa thing will always be a frustration, but even despite people bagging him, until their is a cap reclaimation (NHL changing the rules AFTER the event), the Franzen contract has actually been mostly very good value. Of course, what happens next is more important than what happened previously, and in the last 2 seasons the jury is out due to the unfortunate results of trades and Free Agency (such a shame about Cole, who looked a really nice fit in the top 9). So this summer is not insignificant. If Holland can bring in any quality FAs and get Kindl and Weiss of the cap, that would be success I think. but we can wait and see I guess..... One thought I will leave with...imagine how much stronger his legacy would be if we hadn't seen the loss of Vladdy's norris levels of play, Fisher's punishing hitting or Grigorenko being seen as almost Kovalchuk good before his crash. We could easily be a cup or two better off.

Regardless of the outcome of this hearing, it is now almost impossible to know what is and isn't a penalty and what does and doesn't warrant suspension in this league, bar obvious extremes. The situation has deteriorated badly following an initial improvement when Shanny first came into the NHL job. They could hire monkeys with a buzzer and wouldn't do much worse.