lomekian

Actually the kind of hit that has been getting suspensions last season. A late dirty hit with intent in hurt rather than play the puck

It seems I am marginally more optimistic than the majority. Possibly because my philosphical stance is that if you can't apply hope to sport, then you may as well just watch the news about Gaza, Russia the economy etc... Anyway: 1) The team will be healthier than last year, particularly our top 6 ; partly a lack of Olympics, partly less issues entering the season (gotta love those early playoff exits for healing), and partly because Weiss will be able to play and if clearly can't skate he'll be beaten out in camp. Having no trade value makes him easier for KH to waive. Inevitably Dats, Zatta, Ericsson, Franzen, Alfredsson and Kronwall will all miss a few games, but I think all will pass 60 having been rested. 2) While Nyquist won't get as hot and there will be more attention on Sheahan and Tatar, I still think the kids will take a step forward as a whole, and the 3 will combine for comfortably over 100 points. 3) Weiss will play most of the year and be underwhelmingly solid for 40 points. 4) The D will be a little better, partly because Quincey & Smith will be kept apart more and because both will start the year considerably better than they started last year. Dekeyser will produce a little more offence and Ericsson will play more down the stretch. Kindl will still infuriate but will put up 5-10 more points (or at least in terms of pace) due to a forward core more able to take advantage of his longer outlet passes.He'll occasionally be bumped out for Oullett/Marchenko/Sproul, but with either largely hold onto his spot or be packaged in a trade. 5) Howard will be a little better, Gus will be a little less lucky, but they'll be a solid tandom. Mrazek will put up great %'s in a few games against bad teams. 6) Helm's improved scoring touch will stay, and his PPG will increase again. Same to a lesser extent with Abdelkader, despite less top 6 ice-time. 7) Miller will continue to quietly effective in his role, never exciting anyone, but never letting anyone down and will get slightly higher point totals. 8) Glendenning will play less or on the wing. 9) If alfie comes back, his play will be remarkably similar to this year, but a lack of Olympics will stop him being useless down the stretch. 10) Franzen will get more time with Nyquist, and as a result will put up more than 0.75PPG and will get 25 goals+ despite going on a run of 5 points in 20 games at some stage. Mantha will be out-played by Jurco (before he sticks in the big club) in the Minors but will finish with 30+ goals in GR. The Grand Rapids PP will miss Almquist, but Sproul will get much improved points totals. Babcock will continue to get half the team to over-perform, despite line combinations that make no sense in half the games. Holland will continue to get blamed by fans for things beyond his control, while journalists try to give him credit for things equally beyond his control. The Wings to finish 5-7 in the conference but with a bit more breathing room and to get a better playoff match-up before losing in the ECSF in a blackhawks style tight series. Babcock to ride off into the sunset to much mixed opinions, and the team to do better in FA next summer as the wings splash out to get the 1 last shot for D & Z. These predictions are dependent on Alfie re-signing.

You misunderstand me. I was using Hudler to agree with you....

As KH is going to qualify him, I really think this is the best outcome for the wings. If we had signed him, he would have got picked up off waivers for some bottom feeder with an imbalanced roster, while earning league minimum, and bouncing between the NHL and AHL while learning the ropes. This way he gets to earn good money and be guaranteed high level games, and we get to keep his rights rather than losing him for nothing. The staff all seem to agree that he was ready skill-wise and smarts-wise, but not physically. So this way they get to keep an eye on him while he develops, and if he ever manages to put on the extra 20-25 lbs that would make him big enough to play in the NHL for one not so tall or quick, we get first dobs. Indeed that way things were spoken of by AA and the wings brass suggests that this is an outcome that suits both parties and that both aniticipated and to a degree planned for. He really is an incredibly smart player, but was so small when he started that he is still too small with his limited size increase..this was shown in the AHL playoffs where 2 years in a row he got injured (although both hits were very late and dirty as hell and should have led to suspensions). If you are a go to puck mover you have to be able to take the inevitable punishment aimed at you better than he currently can. If he gets to 26 and weighs 195, it would be great to bring him back, as a PP QB he is undoubtedly better than anyone on the big club not called Kronwall and any of the prospects bar Sproul. He didn't look out of place at NHL level, but his small frame meant they had to keep him sheltered, and more so than was reasonable long term. I, like many others, feel that if you are going to shelter Kindl's lack of intensity and Lashoff's lack of ability, then perhaps it was worth giving AA more games to see how he would cope, but then this is expecting too much from a coach that won't play Smith on the powerplay, thinks that Abledakder is a viable top line option rather than an effective occasional plug in, and seems determined to not keep or re-unite effective lines. (I still can't get over putting legwand on the 4th line when the two players he had chemistry with, Nyquist and Franzen, were struggling). Worked out ok for Hudler!

This is pretty much exactly what I got taken apart for saying in the other thread, but with slightly more positivity. No point paying a guy 20m to go away when he can still contribute to some degree and we have no one ready to replace him yet. . His cap hit is representative of the player he is, and to date has been pretty good value. Franzen in beast mode all the time would be a 6-7m player, no problem. Ah yes....factual information! How dare some one use statistical analysis to counter gut feeling, emotional reactions and fan logic of visible effort = more contribution. People have even wanted Tootoo ahead of him because he hits and fights....and does almost nothing else. Sure, a skilled guy who works his ass off is better than one that doesn't, but a skilled guy with variable effort levels is often better than a no-skill guy that tries as hard as he can...... Despite my earlier comment, I really wanted Tootoo to succeed here, but ultimately he's not good enough for a team aspiring to play any sort of possession game, either skill wise or tactically. His signing made a lot of sense, but it didn't work for either party, and if his time in Grand Rapids shows us anything, he really needs a change of scenery asap.

And yet when I commented on this in the GDT I got flamed from many angles! But essentially it comes from too many officials 'guessing' on calls. Do something dramatic to catch the eye......

Anyone seeing the standard of the officiating in this series. If I thought the NHL refs were poor, the AHL is a joke. Seen Abbotsford get away with boarding, checks from behind, spearing, cross checking, but no calls from the refs. On the back of Almquist getting injured from a disgraceful boarding hit no-where near the puck earlier in the series. Also the griffs aren't really pushing as much as they need to, but have totally outshot the heat, and are losing game 4 after falling 2-1 in game three.

I t probably would have required ditching either Rafalski or two lesser players that were deemed important at the time but proved not to be. It would have a big call and a gamble at the time. Of course in hindsight it would have been the right call. I don't blame Holland for not making it as such, but I remember thinking at the time that looking longer term it would have been my choice...Simply because Hossa and Franzen remain assets for considerably longer than others that we kept instead. Not everyone on the Freep agrees with the jilted HSJ: http://www.freep.com/article/20140428/COL08/304280030/detroit-red-wings-johan-franzen-drew-sharp

It wouldn't have been easy...but i would have been workable if the GM thought it was worth trading some lesser value pieces to make it happen - it would have taken longer term thinking, but in hindsight, it was doable. I'm not sure I realised that at the time of course!

No work ethic. Bad influence on the kids. Doesn't care. Lots of empty statements based on prejudice rather than any evidence. We, as fans, don;t have the first idea what he is like apart from when he's on the ice. He may be a cowardly selfish idiot. He may be a model professional who contributes behind the scenes. Chances are, like most people, he's a decent pro with strong enough desire to make him a decent contributor, but not enough to maximise what he's capable of. Fact is, we don't know. Discussions about value are all fair. Character assassination of people we have never had any personal contact with and have never read anything negative about bar a dislike for journalists (and I've met a few sports journos...most were parasites) is stupid and pointless. As for him not performing the role we want him to...this is partially correct. he does sometimes, he doesn't other times. He gets paid like a top 4 or 5 forward, plays like a 5-7 most of the time (despite the odd productive burst that elevates him beyond that level), and we all expect him to play like a no 3 forward because he has at times shown he is capable. Rather than just junking the guy at massive expense for not fulfilling the role we want him to, surely its better to ask is there a role that he can still provide good value filling? I'd say as a genuine 5th or 6th forward, he's fine.

Franzen's point scoring ratio is much better when NOT paired with Dats. Always has been. Plays far better with Z or even Fil when he was here. Dats and Franzen has never been nearly as effective as the coach thinks. BTW. I don't see Abby putting up 0.75 PPG. As for Money.....His cap hit is lower than D, Z, Alfie, Weiss and if he re-signs, Legwand. And if not legwand another FA worth pursuing may demand more. So he's our 6th best paid forward in real terms. Ok in salary terms THIS YEAR he's our 4th highest, but that is just cap manipulation, and in the scheme of things is meaningless if you are discussing buyouts.

Ah....the old Hossa comparison. I think everyone accepts that the GM screwed the pooch on that one, especially as, with a little imagination and forethought, he could have had both. For someone whose regular season performance people didn't care about, his reg season points and +/- figures stack up pretty well. He is inconsistent, with seemingly no pattern to his hot streaks, I get that its frustrating. But he's a complimentary player who gets paid accordingly, who takes more flack than he deserves due to other worse management decisions elsewhere. If Holland doesn't re-sign the utterly past it crew, spunk a first and too much salary on Quincey, and had been braver in 09, we'd have hossa on the 1st line, a better D and no-one would be complaining about Franzen's streaky but ultimately decent output.

1. How many will have cap hits of that size after this season? Maybe half....some have big raises kicking in next year, a couple are UFAs. Some are great deals, and some are towards the end of front loaded deals signed when they were unproven youngsters. It would be just as easy to find higher contract players you wouldn't swap him for. No-one is saying he's a bargain. At present he is fair value that will likely diminish in a couple of years. Also most of those players you have to give up assets to get. Franzen we have to pay 20m to lose...... 2. His takeways are always better than his giveaways. Even in his crap recent playoffs. He's never been a minus player in the reg season, even as the team has declined. His only bad playoffs in that respect was last year. The coach trusts him defensively. So he's not D,Z or similar. Sure, but he's better in his own zone than many of the guys you mentioned. 3. This is a fair enough point, but I was thinking of that as his future career trajectory as he gets passed by other younger talent. If we were having the same conversation 2 years from now, when there was someone definitely ready to take his spot, I'd be a lot more comfortable with letting him go. All we have at the moment is promise. At present he's a second liner on a team that desperately needs a top line goals-scorer or power forward. Hopefully no longer having $15m tied up in Quincey, Sammy, Bert, Cleary and Tootoo will help. 4. That average of games played does include the season he blew out his knee in 09/10, which is a little unkind. Other than that, this is the first season he's missed more than a handful of games. This is the first non-lockout season apart from the one he missed mostly through injury that he hasn't scored 28 goals or more and 55 points or more since we won the cup. His worst season since the cup still had a 0.72 PPG scoring rate (worse than this season). Its not amazing production for the money, but if there was an FA with those numbers at that price, we'd be wiling to consider it. In ideal world we could trade him for someone better. This isn't going to happen, and we don;t yet have anyone who looks likely to take his place.

No to mention the Wings have Dats, Zetterburg, Weiss, Helm and at this rate possibly Legwand signed up for at least 2 years and in most cases more, With sheahan, athanaseau & Janmark in the pipeline. The team's need for a centre at the deadline is greater than their need over the next two years, which was Jarnkrok's window to make the team. The very fact that people are ambivalent about re-signing a proven veteran 40-55 point centre from the local area, suggest that CJ would have had a struggle to get much time going forwards without a sudden explosion in output.

I know. And I've been mildly disagreeing for that whole time. But he's the go to guy for criticism regardless of whether its deserved or not. Despite being in an inconvenient time zone I catch maybe 2/3 of the wings games every year and have done for as long as its been technically possible. I just don't see things the same way you do. People comparing him with Datsyuk and Zetterberg is pointless. They are superstars and the captains of their respective countries and two of the best two-way players of the last 15 years. And they earn almost twice his cap hit accordingly. Franzen acknowledged he had chances and missed them. As for his mindset, he's always been like that. The guy has confidence issues that undermine his talent and has done since a teen in Sweden. I think what frustrates me is that the judge, jury and executioner are all out in force, despite the guy basically being the same as he always been, except that 1 amazing playoff series. He's scoring points at almost the same rate (which is what i meant by consistent - ie career wise), despite the team not being as good and despite his injury issues. But yet the last two years its been throw him under the bus time. And its all about perceived work ethic. I know Ice-hockey is something of a blue collar game, but people either suggest replacing him with inflated FA signings, totally untried kids, or even more overpaid high energy guys with considerably less ability. I'm not saying he's what we ideally need, or even that i love him as a player. Simply that paying him 20m + to go away while he's still producing at a reasonable rate is pretty stupid if you have no replacement in place. And that for all his faults, he's still a decent player. he was only really like that until he started scoring though. I think he had one year of being a workhorse & scoring goals. Then he started becoming a bit more of an outside player, particularly after he bust his knee and got bashed on the head a few times. He's not the player he briefly threatened to be, but still puts up points at almost the same rate, on a worse team. Some truth in this. A lot of players who have left in recent years have subsequently put up more points on worse teams. partly because the onus on defensive responsibility isn't as great everywhere. Fil always played too much d-first as well.

1) Excellent depth on Bruins D combined with disciplined forwards. 2) Size, strength & physicality of opponents beyond what he had previously experienced 3) Only total Elite players can maintain a hot streak like that. 4) Babcock totally ******* the team chemistry with some really bad line combinations, and not for the first time. All the rookies together come the playoffs really wasn't a good idea, particularly as Jurco had been really good instead of Nyquist on that line and Nyquist was better playing with veterans. 5) He, like Tatar panicked a bit after games 2 and 3 - they both started trying to do far too much on their own, and didn't use their team-mates nearly as well...the pressure got to them as did the physicality and they rushed things. 6) Tats stopped using his linemates completely in 4 & 5 and Sheahan looked slightly out of his depth....Gus didn't get a lot of help from his line. No particular order.

Because Empirical evidence is less useful than emotional reactions to a disappointing end to a tough season where much of the team played badly.? So the stat that a limited player scored 1 more goal than him, in first round playoffs, where a s*** load of better paid players on better teams got zero goals, less points and worse +/- scores than Franzen means that he's worthless and totally overrides the generally positive statistical output over the course of the last few regular seasons, which give him a better points per dollars ratio than most veterans in the league. And you accuse me of cherry picking stats? Despite the fact I have several times acknowledged his streaky form and disappointing late season and playoff output, and am trying to look at management decisions from a removed perspective. I'm sorry that you find my holding a contrary viewpoint so offensive, and that my capacity to elucidate my opinion in a manner that outlines a cohesive argument as to my standpoint makes you yawn. Too many words? Do you watch hockey? Why the f*** would anyone be posting on here the day after we get bumped out of the playoffs if they didn't. Whenever people actually try to use this as a form of argument on these board, the universe gets slightly more inarticulate and intolerant. Fair enough.....I was thinking in cap hit rather than salary. I stand corrected.

Why?

If Legwand re-signs and gets used in a more appropriate manner by the coach its a good trade. If not we just about lost. We needed a centre...and there weren't any others moving. Much of the criticism or desire not to re-sign Legwand is on the assumption that Weiss will be back to 50+ points form next year, which is unlikely even if it does happen the year after. With Z's back playing up more often, a Centre who can contribute now is important, and the captain will be mostly playing wing from here on in I think. Of course this comes down to how important you think the playoff streak is & how high you rate Jarnkrok. For me the streak is massively important 1) The money - even our first round exit essentially pays for Legwand's annual salary 2) Marketing prestige. The longest current playoff streak is a big thing. 3) Player prestige. Added to the lure of Dats & Z, and the new pipeline of kids, the willingness of a GM to trade away prospects/picks to ensure that you make the playoffs sends a message to FAs and current players. We are totally committed to giving ourselves a shot at the playoffs EVERY year. Most teams will rely on geography, quality of life or current roster levels to attract players. The Wings are one of a very small selection who will take risks to make the playoffs. And of course, who knows what happens in the playoffs. Rask gets Howard Flu and Chara tweaks something and suddenly its a much more even series. Gotta buy a ticket etc. Also, much as I like Jarnkrok, his value to us wasn't as great as we once thought. Another small playmaker in a team quite well stocked in 2 way playmakers, in a team desperate to get bigger, a desperation increased by the emergence of Tatar and Nyquist as two more small NHL quality forwards. I also think the leaps forward of AA & Janmark (gorgeous assist yesterday) made this trade more palatable. And if we draft a quality centerman this year or next, and Legwand re-signs Jarnkrok will have to get near his ceiling to make us really regret it. Its like Adam Oates. He went on to have a great career. His departure freed up space for Feds, Primeau (who got us shanny) and Larianov. Indeed His demands for a raise at STL led to the merry go round that made Shanny possible. We won 3 cups and he didn't....ultimately even the worst trade in wings history paved the way for the dynasty that followed.

Alfie made 1.5m more if you include his bonuses. Glendenning also had more goals than Ryan Callahan, Filpulla & Purcell from Tampa, Berglund, Morrow, Backes, Roy & Ott for STL, Hartnell And so far Hartnell, Couturier, Rick Nash, Brassard, Koivu, Sellane, Krejci, Soderberg & Marchand.....ignoring all the other teams. Indeed Franzen has more or as many points as those guys too..... Not a very useful stat.

Agree - If the wings want a premium goal scorer, they need to get one and pay for him. Franzen is a 2nd liner who has bad streaks and good streaks. He is paid accordingly.....he should have been paid a little more for 2 years and less down the line, but right now he gets paid what he's worth in comparison to others. I think we can all find common ground on this one...

Good call...the problem with trading him is the danger if he goes somewhere he's not happy and calls it a day, and the cap hit therein. Much easier to keep him going and control his LITR status if he stays. With the likes of Jurco, Mantha, Pulks, Janmark, AA the greek, and maybe who we draft this year all possible scoring line players in the not too distant future, in addition to tats and nyquist, & the likelehood of having to try to get Weiss going, and the pressure to re-sign legwand due to what was given up, JF as a 3rd line winger on the wings next year, who will try to roll 4 lines, suddenly is a real possibility.

I see him as a guy that bounces between 2nd and third line depending on form. He plays better the less is expected of him (Babcock's calling him out another example of why for all his good points he is not as smart as Bowman, who treated everyone very differently), and is still getting over injury issues, from a mental standpoint at least. Just sticking on the 4th line doesn't work unless we have more point producers higher up the roster. If Jurco or Mantha break out, then all well and good, or if we pick up a genuine scorer on FA. Problem is that this roster is short of people with goal-scoring potential, which makes Franzen worth more to us than he otherwise would be. He's still not Sammy bad, and despite variable courage and on-ice work rate, he knees functioning make him more worthwhile than Cleary or Bert or at this stage Weiss. I also think both he and Legwand were misused by Babcock.

If you have all white collar workers, nothing gets done, despite a lot of conversation. If its all blue collar, there's plenty of sweat but often pointlessly. Wings fans endless bitching online everywhere about Franzen is often missing the point. He's always been a bit floaty, and always been streaky, and has always been massively vulnerable to losses of confidence. But when he was having his good streaks in a better team at a better time, no-one minded. He's not the man to be THE guy. He's best as A guy, and at his cap hit, that's what he should be. People screaming lazyness are being stupid. You can't be an elite athlete in any sport if you are lazy. The management have always spoke of his professionalism. He just doesn't have a high enough compete or confidence levels to maximise his talents, and because he occasionally goes on incredible runs of form, people equate his off periods with a lack of effort. Apart from his first season as a 4th line scrub, he's always been a reasonably defensively responsible perimeter player with the size and skill to surprise. But after those two great playoff series, fans see him as first line power forward and judge him by those expectations. But despite showing the ability from time to time, he isn't that player. And never has been. He's a shy team first guy, who doesn't deal with being in the spotlight, but as a 3rd wheel on a line with a shooter and a passer (preferably one with speed and the other with serious intensity) he can thrive. He's frustrating, disappointing and still very good in a secondary role. It really doesn't help that every time we see him get real chemistry on a line, Babcock breaks that line up. Maybe the coach can see the drop off coming, but he doesn't work with Dats or Helm very well, but does ok with Legwand and Zetterburg, and definitely has chemistry with Nyquist. So he barely gets to play with them...... There is no doubt that his injury problems, particularly the resultant shying away from contact for a while, are a concern, but the guy still put up 40ish points in 50ish games on a depleted team...and his PPG rate in the playoffs was as good as anyone not named D or Z. But he's the scapegoat because our kids give us hope for the future, and our higher paid players have all been injured, and the others have proved their mediocrity over time. The guy makes less than Weiss, less than Legwand, marginally more than Quincy and not a lot more than Sammy, and yet he's a disaster. Guy's salary/PPG since his new contract is as good as anyone not on an ELC in that time. And yet we should pay him 20m to go away to a rival team for nothing, while not yet having a replacement, because we are worried about a PPG decline that hasn't yet happened on a team that has spent the last 15 years specialising on squeezing the last drops out of aging pros. If it all goes **** up in 2-3 years, I'm sure we can do a deal to LTIR him. Lucic costs 50% more and players like him are pretty hard to get hold of in the first place. He also came close with 2 good scoring chances and forced 2 really good saves from Rask. But of course no-one else's turnovers count. No-one is saying he is perfect. It just makes no strategic sense to get rid of him at this point unless something else is happening for sure. People trying to turn this into a black or white either/or need to look at the reality. Until we have someone to replace him, someone has to score those points. Dead wood leaves, cap goes up and worst case scenario we're stuck with and over-priced 3rd liner who occasionally goes on good runs.

As I've said before, I'm fairly ambivalent. But its always easier to identify with support the guys who give it total effort every game while actually getting sweet FA done. There is no doubt Franzen is in decline and his health/personality issues are increasingly becoming a factor. Equally, I read the comments on here after and during games (not last night!) and wonder if people are watching different games. He's defensively pretty responsible, still makes good rushes and despite his finishing being all kinds of awful over the last month, he's still been getting chances every game. He's missed with too many, but he had as many decent chances as anyone in our roster not named Datsyuk or a speedster with stone hands. The criticism he receives online is not a fair reflection of his game, up and down and declining as he is. If he was getting paid 1m less, skated around like a lunatic and put up half the reg season points with a similar plus minus he'd be a lot more accepted. There are obvious concerns going forwards. But equally, he's still worth the money now. There is certainly an argument for buying him out, but how does Holland convince Chris Ilitch of that. "So Franzen,,,,we're worried about his cap hit 2-6 years from now. So what you should do is spend $24m of your money buying him out while we can, despite the fact that he still puts up 0.65 PPG in the reg season, and likely will remain above .5ppg for the next couple of years, despite the fact that not only do we have roster short of points scorers and very little with any trade worth AND the fact that we are finally losing the majority of the AWFUL contracts I've been handing out to FA's over the last 3 years. Oh yeah and Franzen's cap hit is still less than my latest FA signing who hasn't played most of the year, has been invisible when he has, and is still injured. And We'll have about 10-15m cap space this summer after signing our RFAs, depending on Alfie. Would love to be the fly on the wall for that one..... Getting rid of Franzen resolves a problem down the line, but adds to our current ones. If the playoff streak is as important to the management and board as the Legwand deal would suggest, I just can't see it happening. And don't forget, if things get as bad as people fear, there is always LTIR for his concussions or 'issues'. For me, it just doesn't make good management sense to buy him out UNLESS, there is more information regarding his injury or mental issues than we know of. It would also probably help if Babcock's line combo's actually encouraged chemistry rather than destroying it when its been established. Franzen plays a ton better with Nyquist or Zetts or both than he does with Dats or Helm. No problem with this....especially as heating up can get rewarded with more ice time. Seeing as its so visible when he hits beast mode, it should be easy enough for management to juggle. He makes a very good if slightly overpaid 3rd liner or a massively inconsistent and thus unreliable good-ish value second liner. Its also worth remembering that his cap hit was back loaded. Pay him less than he's worth for 2-3 years to pay him more than he's worth the rest.