RedWings Gone Wild

lol.....

Agreed. I think both Holms and Bert have roles to fill on the top lines, but on the same line they have basically made it so that Datsyuk has absolutely no1 to pass to through the neutral zone... they just can't get possession as a unit.

wow... the bert, Holms, Dats line has to be one of the worst in hockey... it's basically Dats and the two anchors.

For Joe Thorton, 5 games is a lot... for a guy who's sole asset is hurting people, and who probably wouldn't be dressed for a while anyways, it is again, an empty gesture.

He probably would have been a healthy scratch for 5 games anyways for being such a moron on the ice... it's really basically an empty gesture by the league... I just wish they'd once take a stand against this crap by giving one of these glorified goons a suspension with some backbone.

side-note; in the past few seasons we've had roughly the same # of injuries due to cheap shots as we've had Stanley cup finals appearances... so, yes, staying the course would be terrifying.... We've also had more long-term injuries because of guys deciding to fight than we've had from cheap shots (ala' Kopecky and Lilja)... so, considering your hyperbole over injuries, shouldn't you logically be advocating that the Wings fight less?

I think it's more than appropriate to compare the 70s/80s to the modern era in terms of thugdom (new word, like it?), because the argument is on the prevalence of cheap shots, which is not subject to rule changes (because cheap shots were always illegal), tho the import of the Euros did lessen the need to waste roster spots on the enforcers... It is perfectly legitimate to say that in most every instance where more enforcers have been used, more cheapshots have occurred. Be it in the modern NHL and what a team like the Ducks have to face every day, or looking back through history at all the cheap vs non-cheap eras of hockey. Enforcers are not a deterrent, if anything the opposite result occurs. Also interesting to note, none of the guys you mentioned were fighters... they were all agitators/hitters that still have a place in the modern NHL... Claudia, Ulf, Vladdy, and even Cheli (at least the past decade) weren't fighters or enforcers. I'd take Vladdy's contributions (which are a lot like Kronwall's) any day of the week, over any current defenseman not named Lidstrom... I also like May's play a lot, but could care less how often he fought. What I don't subscribe to is the belief that enforcers make or break a team, or are "needed"... and I think there is very little in the way of evidence (i.e. stanely cup victories) to support the notion that someone with the role of enforcing makes a team better. I do, however, 100% believe a team has to be tough to win, but it's a toughness of character and determination, not a toughness of fists.... the injuries and tribulations the Wings have faced so far will certainly show how tough the squad is... but if we make the playoffs as a decent seed, I do not envy the team that will have to face a healthy and angry Wings squad.

Few things... Laraque probably wouldn't have been used by Martin if Gionta, D'Agostini, and Fortier were all healthy.... and some people subscribe to the pro-enforcer school of hockey.. it's just very few of those kinds of coaches have been winning cups of late... and it's also a little more tempting to use an enforcer when one's team isn't enough to get the fans into the game and seats (because contrary to popular opinion, money is the ultimate motivator, not success on the ice... if the two can go together, great, but selling tickets and apparel is always motivator #1 for the guys doing the hiring and firing). Also, yes, I think May has played well, but Babcock (also an NHL coach mind you) felt the team's success is likelier with the guys he put on the ice that game... interesting that his logic isn't given a similarly respectful "he must know better than me." I don't know that I would take Maltby over May, but I would certainly use Maltby in more situations than May.

Yes there is. It's called the 80s... back when every team was two lines of stars, and two lines of thugs. The number of cheap shots is considerably down from then.... There were daily cheapshots in the Probert/Kocur days, people just slept a little better because the two of them would return the favor. There's hardly the same number of cheap shots now that the enforcers are less prevalent. The spike in injuries is a result of the fastness of the "new" NHL and the goalie trapezoid making headshots and checks from behind considerably easier to come by.... we've lost one guy from a cheapshot in how long? If there truly was an unwritten rule that the thugs have free-reign against Detroit because of our lack of enforcers, then we'd probably actually see it happen regularly instead of once in a blue moon (and against certain teams that always play that way... *cough* Anaheim *cough*).... Be a Ducks fan for a month, just one month, and you'd realize how much dirtier teams play against the Ducks because of their style of play, and then compare it to how teams play against Detroit... the logic that enforcers make the game safer for the skill players vanishes pretty quickly.... teams tend to play to your level if you play with fighters.

a similar retort of ambiguously supported hypothetical unknowns could be made for every single player on that night's active roster... If Laraque had taken a left turn instead of a right one when heading out of his driveway in the morning he may have never even made it to the game alive!!!!! If you look at May's TOI, how early in the game the hit came, how little icetime Laraque got after the hit, who was on the ice at the time of the hit, and really, just about anything else... and you'd realize that the probability that May makes a shred of difference is nonexistent... furthermore, to justify giving a roster spot to someone on the basis of a minuscule possibility that he may need to be johnny on the spot for some frontier justice is insanely shortsighted, and really goes against everything that has made this team, or any other recent team, successful. I don't think May is a liability or anything, but it is far easier and more effective for us to be rolling 4 lines without him. Dressing guys like Laraque in the lineup is one of many reasons for why the Canadien's are such a blissfully (IMO) bad team, following their lead isn't exactly sound logic.

Sorry, but I don't feel like getting up to speed on every post in this discussion... but my two cents follow: Look, I agree that sticking up for your teammates is important (and if you recall last year's playoffs... guys were sticking up for one another, even on this "Oh So Soft" squad)... However, something important to note that seems lost on many people; Laraque's cheap shots and the parade of Canadiens penalties was the ONLY reason we won that game. Period. We stunk 5 on 5, and only got the goals because of the penalties. If you factor in the retaliation penalties that would have occurred from seeking insta-payback it would have meant we wouldn't have had an extended 5-on-3 and probably wouldn't have gotten the goal. Laraque was also played what, 1 or 2 minutes in total after the knee on knee hit? It's not like there was ample ice time for payback, the guy's useless and his coach knows it. The guys showed discipline in holding back, took the penalty minutes, and got the best kind of revenge: a goal. I'll take that over a May fight any day.

As much as I wanted to see Laraque get his ass handed to him by a Wing last night... I'd take goals as revenge any day, and retaliating would have potentially meant that someone would have been joining Laraque in the box.

A goal judge is 100% unnecessary because we have video replay. If a replay of the goal going in directly off the shot isn't enough to overturn it, then I highly doubt a goal judge would make any difference. The issue here is the intent to blow rule, which CAN'T POSSIBLY APPLY in this case anyways... there is no possible way it could have been the ref's intent to blow, unless he wanted the play dead before May shot the puck. It goes in directly off the shot, it didn't trickle over the line, it went in right away... the intent to blow can't be used in this instance, because there is no possible way the ref could have been inclined to blow the play dead. I see only a few possibilities for what happened last night. 1. the communication between the refs and toronto was insufficient (maybe a French Canadian on the other end of the line ). 2. the ref was so sure of his call that he ignored all logic and evidence. A goal judge wouldn't make a difference to either of those.

We earned this loss. The stupid givaways in the last 2 min are enough for me to think we completely deserve this loss.. That being said, I really have no freakin idea why we have replay anymore... that's probably the worst disallowed goal i've ever seen.

Few things, I don't recall anyone arguing that Maltby and Draper should have their #s retired (if some1 did, it was a small minority). However, I did list the likelihood of players getting to the rafters, putting Lids as the only guarantee, and listing Draper, Osgood, and Federov above Shanny. I do, however, disagree on retiring Federov's number. I think he was monumentally important to this frachise's resurrection, and was instrumental in 3 of our recent cup wins... but the list of significant contributing names is a long one, and the list of career Wings with a heavy importance to this franchise is at its most saturated in our team's history. We've had three recent guys in Draper, Yzerman and Lids who have all gotten in over 1000 games in the Wings uni, two of which have over 1000 points too. Holmstrom and Maltby are getting close to the 1000 game mark, and considering they've both had relatively strong starts to the season, it's likely they'll be around a year or two more to get a chance at that mark. Datsyuk, Franzen, and Zetterberg are all signed long enough to get a chance for the mark too. Couple that with Osgood likely getting many of the franchise goaltending records and how many HOFers we've had come through lately, and the competition for the rafters is at its stiffest in our history. I think in a different era, with a different team, Federov would have his number retired, but ultimately, he's been gone from the team so long, and is a figure so detached from the Detroit area, it's just very hard to imagine them retiring his number. I do believe that there is a history of prejudice in the NHL community and fanbase against European players, especially if they even so much as think about making any money from hockey (ironic that nobody has mentioned Shanny chasing the dollars as a youngster), but in this case I don't think a Canadian or American born-player with Federov's exact numbers and history, would be rafter worthy for this franchise.

He was getting zero icetime and was a regular healthy scratch... it would make zero sense for him to try and stick it out in the NHL this season when he could develop in Russia with actual playing time and come back next year. It was between that and the AHL. I think he made the right choice.

I don't think anyone other than Lidstrom is going to be getting their number retired in the next few years, but Federov is far ahead of Shanny in terms of likelihood. As I said in my previous post, he had 200 more games than shanny in a Wings uniform, 300 more points, an MVP award, and two Selkes, plus the same number of cups. Few players can say they have accomplished all that in one uniform.

Shanny is without a doubt a hall of famer... but retire his number, seriously? There are about a dozen guys as deserving, or more deserving of that honor than him.. 1. Lidstrom.. No brainer. After Lidstrom it gets into the less justifiable 2. Osgood.. Vast majority of his career with Wings, 2 cups as a starter, will probably be #1 in teams history in Wins department. 3. Federov.. 900+ points as a wing in 900+ games. 5th all time in team scoring behind Yzerman, Howe, Del, and Lids. 200+ more games than Shanny and well over 300 more points. Same number of cups, plus an MVP, and two Selkes. 4. Holmstrom... part of all 4 cups, first liner many times, entire career as a Wing, could finish career with 900+ games as a Wing. 5. Draper.. Not offensive, but 4 cups and 1000+ games as a Wing (every1 else with 1000+ has a retired jersey, or will). Top defensive forward, Selke winner, good enough of a player to represent Canada in the Olympics, so vastly underrated in terms of value to the team. 6. Then Shanny. 7. Maltby 8. McCarty 9. The new generation of Datsyuk and Zetterberg (whose stock will rise if they continue on with us, which it seems likely they will). In my mind Shanny is quite low on the list of guys who deserve that honor. He played a long time here, was amazing, and will go in the Hall of Fame, but if you can justify his number being retired, then I don't see how Fed, Osgood, Holmstrom, or Draper can be left off the rafters. In my opinion, you give guys like this a nice plaque in the arena, put them in the team Hall of Fame or something, but retire their number? The franchise has been around since 1926 and in that time we've retired a mere SIX numbers (7 if you're counting Aurie). That's less than a guy per decade... and now you'd want to open the floodgates and diminish the honor for Shanny? A guy who played 716 games in a Wings uniform and score 633 points? That's impressive, but FAR from rafter worthy..... Now, if he was Ray Bourque

He was great for us, wish him the best.

I think Draper is already signed on for 2010-11.

I agree that team success is a subjective measure, but in reality, there's not much more that can be used as evidence. I will, however, point out that Malkin logs more icetime (at least the last 2 years), led the league in takeaways last season, and had only 1 more giveaway than Crosby did (and Crosby played in 5 less games). They block nearly the same # of shots and throw about the same number of hits. Crosby is better on the faceoffs tho. I will, however, also still disagree and say that I think Malkin was the better player through every round of the playoffs last year, with the exception of the Caps series that saw a pretty fun Ovie vs Crosby scoring showdown.

The thread was.... Crosby and Malkin.... I didn't factor the rest of the team into it because, well, there was no need. Crosby's rookie year was great, but I was clearly talking about contributions to overall team success, not individual. However, let me correct you on one spot.... You're overrating Fluery highly. Don't let Osgood's stats from last year fool u, Fluery's numbers, both GAA and save percentage are average.... in playoffs or regular season. Again, I'm simply looking at how the team does when Malkin is on versus how the team does when Crosby is on. And btw, Malkin was outscoring Crosby after pretty much every series in the playoffs last year, and the year before... so don't pretend Crosby was just 2nd fiddle in the finals alone.

Your opinions that I've seen regarding Crosby have always been reasonable, so this isn't a flame... that being said, I just have to disagree on a few points. I think the Federov/Malkin juxtaposition is a tempting one to make, albeit misleading to the overall point.. and ultimately leads to the debate of "who was more responsible for our success, Fed or Yzerman." So, similarly, the debate extends into who is more responsible "Malkin or Crosby." Then we must get into the debate of intangibles (leadership etc..)... What I will say is this... Without Malkin, Pittsburg has CONSISTENTLY failed. Every. Single. Time. The season before Malkin was one of the most pathetic seasons I've seen an NHL franchise endure. The season Malkin came in the team rose from 58 pts in the standings to a whopping 105. Granted, both Crosby and Malkin were instrumental in that turnaround, and every1 on the squad had a year of maturity under their belts. But the evidence doesn't end there. The past two seasons the Pens have had injury troubles during the regular season. Each time they do their record either improves or stays the same, and Malkin picks up the slack. Malkin gets injured, Crosby goes on a record pointless streak and the Pens drop 4 straight and 5 of 6. Lets look at the playoffs then. Malkin had 19 points in 14 games in the eastern conference 08 playoffs, and was their best player prior to the finals. When he vanished, because of fatigue or whatever else, the Penguins were extremely lucky to even take it to 6 games. Crosby was strong in 08, but to no avail. Ironically, when Crosby was getting shut down in the 09 finals, Pittsburgh didn't need him. In the four games Pittsburgh won in the finals, Malkin had 1 goal and 6 assists for 7 points. Crosby had 1 goal and 2 assists for 3 points. Quit frankly, beyond preference in playing style, there is zero evidence suggesting Crosby is the more essential of the two. All signs point to Malkin as being the key ingredient to success. Perhaps that will change in the future, but all signs point to Malkin.

I believe may was the guy in the box for the to many men on the ice penalty. He was also the guy that stepped out of the box during the play where Zetterberg scored to make it 5-4.

too bad they suck against every other team in the league. They beat us 5-1 and people start saying "Oh with Kessel and the Monster, they're invulnerable." 3 game losing streak. They blow.