RedWings Gone Wild

"With Osgood sidelined with an ankle injury from Jan. 21 until last weekend, the Isles thrived in front of a tandem of DiPietro, the No. 1 overall pick in 2000, and veteran backup Garth Snow."... Which is why he was traded... because he was deemed expendable.. It's not like they broke the bank in the trade either, all they landed was the great Justin Papineau... Point is, either way you look at it, he wasn't shutting the door before he went down with that injury, and when he went down DiPietro played well enough for the team to go in that direction earlier than planned... just trying to get past this myth that Osgood was leading teams full of AHLers to the playoffs every year he was gone. The original conversation that it all stemmed from (on a different thread) was who was the best goalie in Wings history.. so we were excluding accolades accumulated earlier in their careers and focusing on their Wing days.. and Vernon played in a "different era" earlier in his career, but not in his Wings days.. and his stats were still piss-poor. And again, not denying he had value, just saying I don't consider him top goalie in Wings history... not sure why that is so mind-boggling.

I've acknowledged those things every time... I simply don't find them sufficient, and use stats to show that I thought he played pretty poorly up until his final playoff run with us.

Don't get me wrong, I like ol' Schneider a lot.. but Housley and Leetch were both better IMO.

I don't think anyone is advocating playing the game with skirts on or anything.... the game is "brutal"... but that brutality only works if it's within the confines of fair play. When players begin taking liberties, or disobeying the rules, then rule changes come into play.. and crackdowns occur on the physical nature of the game. If anything, being cheap is counterproductive to maintaining a physical presence in the game, because nobody likes the cheap stuff (expect shortsighted fans who appreciate only the split-second gratification of the hit, and fail to see the big-picture of the retaliation... whether it be direct, like a suspension, or indirect, like an eventual rule change). It's because of the really dirty stuff that was happening that we've begun getting all these anti-fighting rules... which quite frankly is a shame. Roberts is a guy I liked, but he could be real cheap too... And Iginla led Canada to gold? Iginla's only good game in the 02 Olympics was against the U.S. in the final. If you don't remember Roberts sucker-punching Franzen in the head when the Mule had just come back from a concussion...

Your sole answer was that Vernon mentored Ozzy, therefore he is important. By that logic Gare is just as significant because he helped instill the hardworking leadership mentality in Yzerman that would lead us to multiple cups. If impact felt after leaving a team counts for Vernon, then it should count for everyone. I don't agree with the logic, nor would I view Gare as a particularly significant piece of Detroit's recent success... just wanted to show the slippery slope of debating subjective measures such as influence over peers. Does it have a place in the discussion? Sure. Should that, coupled with a single postseason of note, be the only evidence of note in proposing placing Vernon above other Wings goalies? I find that silly.

So then by this definition Vernon is a good goalie coach... but that tells me little in terms of his value as a goaltender.. and that's the heart of the issue when we're talking about top goaltender for the Wings (which is what this conversation stemmed from initially).. And, if subtle influence over a better player warrants placing Vernon ahead of...say... Hasek or Osgood... well, then I petition for the inclusion of Danny Gare on Detroit's all-time roster because he was such an influence over Yzerman (quoted by Yzerman too)... Without Gare, there would be no Yzerman, Yzerman wouldn't have been the great captain who attracted so many stars, therefore no cups... Therefore, Gare > Yzerman in terms of franchise importance.

Good to see that you can constructively add to a conversation. That being said, have i ever said he was "s***ty"? No, I have only advocated against overstating his importance with no realistic basis for doing so (i.e. in the land of data/facts/stats that frightens you oh so very much). I'm not going to waste my time with you though, since you seem intent on debating in the world of gut feelings and decade old memories.

Feel free to justify the opinion in some other no-stat way then, or feel free to ignore my posts.

I've said it once, I'll say it again... with the exception of one (and only one) playoff run, Vernon was absolutely awful in net for us. He was barely ever above a .900 save percentage, and never topped 33 games in net, because everyone in the organization had extreme doubts about him.... we got rid of him for a reason... enough with the nostalgia and rewriting of history.

Always cracks me up to see Kiprusoff high on these lists "last season was a down year for him"... He hasn't played well in any capacity since 2006-07, and he's been steadily declining in productivity every year in the NHL since 03-04. Last season he was one of the worst starters in the League (he made Turco look like an all-star), and the difference between him and Osgood last season is that Kipper never once turned it on. At least Osgood had a decent playoffs. And I wouldn't take a Rinne or Hiller until I saw a repeat performance. I've seen to many one-season wonders in the NHL (These guys probably had Ellis on their list last year and Raycroft on it 2 years ago)...

Ok, i see a lot of guys doing the ol' revisionist trick to Osgood's non-Wing days... and let's just say he did not do very well in St. Louis or NY.... and Snow, despite sucking Osgood's first year in NY, actually wound up taking his job the second year. Osgood 02-03 with NY: 2.92 .894% Garth Snow that same season with NY: 2.31, .918..... and Garth Snow sucked. And the idea that Osgood was on a bad team when he stunk in St. Louis is also incorrect. Tkachuk, Weight, Demitra, Pronger, Drake, Mellanby, Cajanek, Valeri Bure, Cory Stillman, etc etc.... this was a good ol' tough guy grit team most LGW visitors seem to want out of the wings roster... and might I add, this was a roster not far removed from a President's trophy when Osgood arrived.. This team severely underachieved, and while it wasn't all Osgood's fault or anything, he certainly didn't do them any favors. I like Osgood, but let's not turn his non-Detroit years into him "carrying teams on his back".... because that's just not true. You want to see a guy carry a team on his back? Revisit Dom in his Buffalo years.

I'm sorry, how is this a great signing? They bought out Prospal to make room for Tanguay, and Tanguay really isn't that much of an improvement.... they still don't have a decent top 6... they have 4 offensive players (vinny, tang, st louis, and Stamkos).. it's going to be the same as last year with a minuscule improvement on D with Ohlund coming in.... and the rest of their additions are at-best role players that will duke it out for spots on the roster.. They had 50 guys play for them last season in a desperate attempt to find some consistency... i don't expect this season to be any different. For this team to be good Stamkos would have to light it up on the second line so that the team actually has more than 1 line of offense.. and Mike Smith will have to be a wall (literally).

oh and also... 13 - number of games it'll take Datsyuk to crack the Wings top 10 scorers list. good riddance Ogrodnick!

Hey, i was trying to do the numbers in bulk! but yes, i'm embarrassed.

d'oh!.... http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/teams/det/roster has him listed as 7 and I wasn't paying close enough attention..... that's not his number, and also not one in circulation... strange that they have that.

fun topic... 13 - the number of penalty minutes Datsyuk will get (don't ask me how that's possible, it just is!)... also the number of lady byng trophies he wins by the end of his career. 8 - number of games Abdelkader will play this season (sorry buddy) 44 - number of games Bertuzzi will be healthy for (pessimism is kinda my thing) 33 - number of times I'll wonder where Draper's offensive game went 93 - number of times i've watched him pull the pacifier from Kane's mouth 35 - number of minutes Howard will play before we start shopping for a new backup 21 - number of goals Leino nets this year 5 - number of norris trophies lesser defensemen have (yes that's a crack at ol' Raymond) 29 - the number of points Jwills gets this year (Not my fault he chose a low number!) 30 - number of hairs he can grow in his playoff beard. 18 - a point total Maltby couldn't reach if his life depended on it.

Ok, their defense is going to be pretty nasty next season.... I wonder what this means for SJ tho, it'll be interesting to see who they're clearing the cap space for... Heatley deal coming soon perhaps?

Iginla? Classy? We should all chip in and get the guys at THN a dictionary and a copy of the 04 and 07 playoffs.... what a joke.

The reason I do not consider that Calgary team as a very good team is simply because they lived and died with Kipper.... everything hinged upon him. PERIOD. The flames were 12-1 that postseason when Kipper let in 1 or fewer goals.. They were 3-10 when Kipper let in more than 2 goals. TWO MEASLY GOALS. That's how offensively inept they were. Their three victories when Kipper allowed more than 2 goals? 3-2 against Detroit.... 4-3 against San Jose (and it went to OT).... 3-2 against Tampa... They eeked by in every round on Kipper's coattails. I don't care what the reffing did, it's because of teams like Calgary that we had the rule changes... get rid of the clutch and grab crap... it was the only thing they were good at. Top scorers?: Iginla 22 points in 26 games... Conroy 17 in 26.... and Gelinas 14 in 26...

The 01 Devils, 00 Stars, 08 Penguins, and 09 Wings were all a year removed from winning the cup. With a topic as subjective as this one, your list should start with them because they were not your sometimes fluky contender riding a hot goalie (like the flames, canes, ducks, and oilers)... nor were they a team that gelled at the right time, but proved they weren't a legitimately strong team by ungelling just as quickly (like the Senators). Look at any other season and your Irbes, Giggies, Kippers, and Rolosons were not able to repeat those performances... which calls into question how "great" those teams were.

He's got the rest of his life to sit in a press booth, or on the radio, or working in some other hockey capacity. His chances of earning a paycheck for playing the game are diminishing every day.

Yzerman night... sweet.... 10 bucks says someone scores off of a Samuelson giveaway ... though I'd settle for a Schneider one.

I'd be more impressed if he challenged Gainey for most Selkes all-time. He only needs 2 more!

Let's not forget that this is the guy who was pawning his cup rings to pay off his debters. The guy isn't going to make money in the NHL anymore, and the AHL/IHL and other minor North American leagues don't exactly dish out big time paychecks..... the guy should get his money while he can.

I gotta go against the grain and say that, despite the super stacked roster, the 02 team is not better than the 08 team... purely because the 08 squad came close to repeating, and the 02 sucked in the 03 playoffs, despite a largely similar roster and the emergence of Datsyuk as a star. With largely intact squads the 02 wings (minus only Hasek basically), 07 ducks, 06 canes, 04 lightning, and 03 devils all either didn't make the playoffs or lost in the early rounds the following year. Not exactly a quality I would look for in my best squad of the decade.... Colorado did well the season following their cup win, but still weren't the club they were the previous season (it took them two games 7s in a row to get to the semis). The only squads with playoff consistency were the 08 Wings, the 09 Penguins (how they do next year is still a ? tho), and the 2000 Devils.... I put the 08 Wings at the top of that list because I consider the West a much deeper and stronger conference.