RedWings Gone Wild

They called him Lucky for a reason.... that being said, I always thought Robitaille was tremendously overrated... and in terms of all-time squad, I think both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are above him in terms of pedigree, importance, and accomplishments. Robitaille has never been in the running for any major individual awards (minus the Calder), and was crap during his Detroit years (especially the pathetic 02-03 season).... with Ovechkin around I don't even think Lucky Luc is in the discussion of best Left-wing ever either.

Well, the NHL has been around since 1917... so, by your definition, the only people who can judge would be people born around 1910, so they would be 7 when the NHL began and can truly remember every single player in NHL history...

The argument I presented was that Vernon was not a top goalie... (and if you read my post you'd notice I said that I do not believe Cujo to be of vital franchise importance either)..... I don't really care that he was the first Wings goalie in a long time to win the cup, he probably would have been the first one a few years earlier if he hadn't stunk in the 95 playoffs. This is an argument about the best all time Wings team... and nostalgia over a cup win isn't the only determiner of greatness... None of that factors in to the debate of who is better, and who was better during their tenure with the Wings

good squad too, they still barely beat the soviet team at the Canada cup. Soviet Union won the first finals match 6-5, then the Canadian team won the next two games 6-5.... very close series among two of the greatest hockey teams ever assembled.... in comparison, the 76 squad was much more dominant.

It's a damn good squad, no doubt about it... Only spot that could be improved upon is goaltending... both decent goalies, but not among Canada's all-time finest... that's where the 02 Olympic squad has an edge.

No doubt a very very good team... a case could be made for some of the Soviet teams out there (their 76 Canada Cup team was without many of their top players.. so it'd be interesting to see how that tournament would have played out with a deeper roster)... You could also make a case for some of the old Montreal Canadien teams because back when the league was only 6 teams (only 3 of which were consistently strong) you had about as much talent confined to a very small number of teams..

What's the point of having this thread, or any thread for that matter? to discuss and justify our claims. If you feel it's out of the vein of appropriate conversation to make some simple and direct statements, backed up by evidence... then you really don't need to post in the first place

just saying they don't belong in discussions of the Wing's best ever... that's all.

I remember Vernon's days here VERY well... and he never impressed me once beyond that fight with Roy... but I don't really place enforcer at the top of a goalie's list of duties. Vernon was a decent starter, but that's it... he got the Conn Smythe because there was no clear favorite (only Federov was a point per game, and our 3rd highest scorer had a measly 13 points... goalies are the obvious choice in these instances), and his playoff/season numbers were very average (his highest regular season SV % with us was a .903, his only season above .900 with us too... he only had one playoff with a sv% above .900 too.. WOW, best WING EVER!), plus he never played more than 33 games in a season during his Wings years because we rightfully second guessed his ability EVERY SINGLE YEAR constantly changing our minds and putting Ozzy in net (and we finally just got rid of him, because he really wasn't an integral part of our success.... for further details see what happened the next season when we got rid of him)..... and yet he's above Hasek to you (who even in his old-age Wings days bests Vernon in every single statistical capacity)?.... Seriously?... and don't give me the "he played in the 80s" crap, because the years we're talking about with Vernon are the years where goalie stats were considerably inflated due to the clutch n grab/paltry scoring.... Cujo's playoff numbers on the other hand were superb (his 03-04 playoffs was among the best we've ever had from a goalie), and there is no1 to blame for our losses that season other than our offensive inefficiency..... If one single decent playoff is good enough to make Vernon one of our best ever, then I hardly see how Cujo shouldn't be inserted into the debate.... but if you were to ask me, neither of them would be in the discussion. Only Sawchuk, Osgood, and Hasek. And Rouse was decent at the time... but that's it... not to mention he was old when he got to the Wings and not even racking up the PIM anymore.... His best days were in Washington and Toronto, and THEY wouldn't even put him on their all-time squads. The idea that he is among the best defenders to ever wear the Winged wheel really undercuts the depth and history of the franchise in favor of the nostalgia people have for our back-to-back squad...

Rouse was very average in the context of RED WINGS HISTORY.... I wouldn't put him near the top of our 90s era defensemen (Lids, Murphy, Coffee, Fetisov, Vladdy, Chelios... tho tail end of decade, Ward.... etc).... and that's just the 90s. and Vernon? On the Wings all time squad?... uh no.... Osgood, Hasek, Cujo, Sawchuk... all better choices.... not to mention the 3 other half of fame goalies that have played for this team.... and BTW, Vernon IS NOT a hall of famer.

Really?.... Really?... I remember Pushor, Rouse, Grimson and those guys.... they were all pretty below average

What? So little love for Fetisov? If we're talking guys taken the context of their prime.... then Fetisov and Larionov were two of the best to ever put on a Wings uni..... In terms of Wings D.... Fetisov > everyone in the past 30 years not named Lidstrom... no contest

You should have casually reminded him that Osgood will be retiring soon. *wink wink*

Ever consider that was his point when he said he didn't feel like one of the direct contributors? Is the idea that a guy netting 50 points with terrible minutes would want more of a chance to prove himself really that difficult to grasp? What'd he become a hockey player for? To settle for Maltby minutes? He obviously did "live with it" for a long time in our system. His call up was considerably delayed due to the pre-salary cap era when we'd just buy replacement for every guy that left town.... and then when he did get the call he got little opportunity beyond the second power play... He also never said a word of complaint while here (at least none that I recall)... and that isn't being a "team guy"? You guys need to stop treating Hudler like an ex-girlfriend... man-up... he'll be back soon enough, and hopefully when he is back he'll be that top line forward he wants to be... which one of you would be complaining then?

Bert - Lang - Williams Schneider and Anders Eriksson on D I call it the leftover line...

I'd definitely choose that over Bertuzzi........... Having him tarnishing this uniform for part of one season was more than enough.

13 - Rahmani best....jersey....ever

SUCKERS!

Ok.... so...... the notion exists... fine....... and guys who leave for the KHL don't have the cup as their #1 priority..... fine What's troublesome to me is that you present it as somewhat of a Euro-exclusivity. "As most North Americans believe". The fact of it is, the cup is a bonus to pretty much anyone playing in the league, if we're to be honest with ourselves. The classiest, loyalist guys in modern NHL history (who are long gone as a breed) were playing to win the cup... sure... but they were also playing for... you guessed it, GREEN... MOOLA... CASH.... and damn if they weren't trying their hardest to get that money when it was a contract year (remember the Sakic holdout? Or Roenick leaving the Hawks for money, which upon retiring he said he wish he spent his entire career there, but they just weren't willing to spend enough... Briere was pretty quick to leave a contender for 10 mil a year... or how Kariya verbally agreed to take a pay cut for Anahiem so they could sign a few extra pieces, but then bolted... and then we can look at Danny Heatley, or Thorton). You're going to have a hard time finding classier players that don't take the time to occasionally remind us all that while the cup is nice, the money is nicer.... and these stories are always back pagers compared to any time a Euro holds out or switches leagues. and, as i said before, expect the number of Canadians in the KHL to rise dramatically as the league rises in prominence and pay, so perhaps in a few years I could make the same assertion about Canadian players with what amounts to the exact same depth of evidence. As it is there are quite a few of them there, a good number of which could be on NHL rosters at this very moment... Here's just a small sample (it's incomplete, but I don't feel like trying to navigate Russian sites for complete rosters, but every one of them has NHL experience, minus Kariya's brother who could have been a regular if he wanted to)... Marc Lamothe, Steve McCarthy, Kevin Dallman, Trevor Letowski, Dan LaCouture, Martin Grenier, Pierre Dagenais, Bryan Berard, Derrick Walser, Chris Simon, Nathan Perrott, David Nemirovsky, Mark Popovic, Ray Giroux, Robert Esche, Eric Landry, Andy Chiodo, Ben Clymer, Geoff Platt, Mike Iggulden, Martin Kariya (Paul’s brother) Now, I've never implied you made the stereotype up, or that you fully believe it... However, any euro who has come over here comes over with the intention of making a long-lasting career here... And therefore, the cup of the most importance is the one they play for yearly, and the one that will be representative of their career achievements and accolades. The NHL isn't Vegas where you go to it, give it a spin, and hope for the best payday possible... still, if you aren't getting offered what you're worth (which in Zherdev's case he isn't even being offered what the Arbitrator deemed fair) then it's a little illogical to expect some grand dedication to the NHL and its hardware for a young kid with his entire career ahead of him.

What point are you exactly trying to make? You gave an article that says: "Lidstrom is firmly entrenched as one of the greatest players in history, while obliterating the notion European players don't crave the Cup as much. What utter nonsense that turned out to be."... and then you turn right around and say "you'll get a different answer" in terms of what is the priority to win.... Those are contrary statements, unless your whole big point in regurgitating stereotypes that you apparently don't believe in is to show that Euros prefer a gold medal to a cup? And? And, if you want to know what your typical answer will be to your Stanley vs Gold question, I've read enough answers to those to tell you that it will read something like: "They are too different to compare. One comes around every 4 years and is over very quickly, and one happens every year and takes a lot to win." You want proof? Just look up any interview with Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Semin, or any other Ruski... above all other nationalities, they are asked that question the most...

I can see it from both perspectives, which is why I initially called the situation ambiguous. None of the Russian leagues have arbitration (nor do most any foreign markets), and as such they do not view it as a legitimate contract.. not to mention, no foreign market (even the ones with strict agreements with the NHL) have any regard for restricted free-agency in general, which essentially makes it an NHL specific circumstance, as globally a RFA and a FA are pretty much the same thing, and no foreign market is penalized, or required to contribute compensation (like an NHL club would have to), for signing RFAs. So again, that whole arbitration/RFA stuff is presently a pretty large gray area, which needs to be addressed. What is weird to me is that Medvedev had said they were going to abide by the arbitrator's decision, then filed Hudler's contract the day before (which is when Holland and Hudler's agent came to the two year-5 mil deal if I am correct, because if I remember correctly they never actually made it all the way to arbitration).. So, to my estimation, the word must have been out that a deal was reached and all parties were satisfied before the contract was actually validated in Russia anyways.

What? No word on if Theo is coming to camp? We got some great bars in Detroit!

Well, honestly, I got the feeling that the Wings were pretty happy with the results anyways. We got replacements for cheaper, and he will be coming back (probably) in his prime for a very cap-friendly 2.5 a year... Plus he gets two years of experience as a 1st line forward, which should help him become develop his defensive and offensive game.. It really could (emphasis on could) wind up being a very advantageous situation for the Wings, which is why I'm not as mad about it as I normally would be.

Agreed, and it would be nice if businessmen actually had ethical standards like that, but they usually do not (at least the successful ones). Which is why so many agreements have been made with different leagues around the world, and also why they need to begin negotiating with the KHL. That being said, IMO the KHL has been pretty respectful to the NHL in regards to player signings. There is nothing to stop them from bidding on players under contract (minus the IIHF, which wouldn't do much anyways), but both the NHL and KHL have been abstaining from doing so in order to keep future negotiations peaceful. All of the big name signings that have occurred have mostly been with unsigned players (Hudler's situation being a little ambiguous).

If your initial post was an attempt to show how a fictional stereotype is being propgated by financial situations, then it was not something I got from it, or get from it while rereading it. "Now they are leaving for money, not really caring if they win a cup or not".... And, as long as we're pointing out misinterpretations, I never have and never would attempt to dilute the impact and importance of the Canadians on our team, that would be moronic and hypocritical.... that being said, most of the posts I read on these forums from Wings fans have this idolized and fantasized memory of our past and what we were like as a more physically intimidating team.... I mean, our bruise brothers days were among the franchise's worst, and, while Kocur was on our back to back team, he was at the twilight of his career, and not an enforcer presence.... and I was merely pointing out that as our roster slowly emptied of the goonish elements (our goonery was never heavy anyways), our success actually INCREASED... Which leads me back to the point on Europeans in the NHL... Regardless of what Don Cherry says, there is ZERO/ZILCH/NADA in terms of evidence to suggest that a Canadian will try harder to win the cup than a European based on a deeper desire to win it.. That being said, modern sports is purely BUSINESS, it's sad, but true... In the modern NHL your Joe Sakic is just as likely to hold out for more money as your Peter Forsberg... and it isn't just Europeans that have opted to take their careers to the KHL, you'll see plenty of Canadians on those rosters, and probably more if there is a continued discrepancy in salaries. Were you turned off to the NHL when they began (and continue) to poach players from around the world? Do you know how many Europeans have jumped ship for the NHL in the middle of contracts? Quite frankly it isn't stealing, they have the same right to sign players that we do... it isn't a one-way deal... The NHL really has very little room to complain.