RedWings Gone Wild

Osgood was always meant to split time with Hasek, the only reason he played such a small number of games last season is because of his injury... They're both old guys now, overworking them doesn't benefit us, regardless of who is playing better. With Legacy and Osgood it was different because Legacy wasn't Hasek's age and didn't have a history of injuries, we could afford to give him a healthy majority of the starts and still expect him ready and capable come playoffs.

If Bettman had half a brain (which he doesn't) he would have rigged that matchup years ago. Though maybe he is. I'm still not quite sure how the rangers managed to have so much cap space in the off season (don't throw numbers at me, I know the numbers, I'm still skeptical).

Yzerman played the kind of time he was physically capable of playing, his minutes were never cut. You don't need to use playing time as a reward with veterans who have proven themselves as sound competators time and time again. You just need to give these guys the amount of playing time necessary to have them ready and able for the playoffs. Why can I make assumptions about your post? Well, you implied that Hasek wasn't earning his ice time. Fair enough. But do you really want Osgood playing the majority of the games? Does it really benefit the team in a long term sense? If that's not what you wan't, then why bother posting? Nobody has come on here asking to have Dom play 50-60+ games. The point people are making is that things WONT change if we are starting one over the other. How is Hasek supposed to regain his confidence from the bench? That makes no sense. We need BOTH healthy and confident in time for the playoffs. Limiting one of the two does not accomplish this. Not even the most arrogant of Hasek fans have come on here asking for the man to play 50-60 games this season, and yet your comment implies that Hasek doesn't deserve ice time. What does starting Osgood the majority of the games accomplish? Everyone here knows that the regular season will be essentially split between the two goalies. The only reason Hasek got so many more starts last year is because Osgood got injured. Yet, people are implying Hasek needs to be benched in favor of Osgood. What exactly does that achieve? You're naming statistics of wins and GAA, it's irrelivant as long as we're in the playoffs and in a good position. So, pretell, if I was ranting and raving, what was the point of your comment if not to imply Hasek doesn't deserve to play? What was the point of this whole damn thread?

Honestly, with a pretty low salary cap the only reason a team should miss the playoffs for a number of years in a row (like the dead wings era) is if nobody wants to play for you. I could see the Wings being a team that dips in performance for a while, and maybe missing the playoffs a few times, but I doubt you'll see any long tenures without a playoff berth. Origional six teams are desirable places to play, and in an era where everyone can essentially affort to pay to the cap level, there is no reason for continually poor performances (unless the team is being completely missmanaged). We haven't had this cap for very long, but teams like Buffalo, Carolina, Tampa bay illustrate my point. Their fluctuation in performance is something I anticipate as being more common than it was in the previous decades. Buffalo was a cup contender and presidents trophy winner in 2006-07, this year they'll be lucky to make the playoffs.

Yep, and we've had coaches say the same thing with Osgood, and we've found ourselves out in the first or second round that way on a number of occasions...but alas, Hasek, the man who has never lost with us in the first or second round is certainly applicable to your statement, cherio mate, another fine fine comment. Oh Hasek, how doth thou sucketh so badly when thoust hath Osgood to learneth from! I'm going to mail a pad and pen to Hasek so he can take notes from Osgood while he warms up the bench. AH! It gets even better! Except, wait... no.. that statement only applies to youngins like Flip and Hudler who haven't proven themselves year after year after year after year (I think even YOU get my point) again.. You see, when a player "dom"inates the league for so many years, sane people tend to give him some time to sort things out. The Wings...UHHHHH... have that benefit seeing as how we are top in the west, and not fearing for our playoff life. There were years when Yzerman was less than stellar, Cheli didn't have a single goal last season, Draper went from selke to nobody... and yet I don't recall Babcock scratching them. Honestly, do we really need to win the presidents trophy again? I'm really tired of that trophy, it sorely lacks in the post-win parade and festivities. So, do you really need to be wetting yourself over the irrelivancies of the regular season? Is it really so bad to have two goalies ready and capable come the playoffs? Do you color outside of the lines on purpose or are you just stupid? But no no.. you're totally right.. screw Hasek, ditch him. we should stick with Osgood and Howard. Unless you're implying Hasek shouldn't get playing time since he hasn't earned it, but should somehow still be ready to play without establishing a rhythm, if Osgood gets hurt. Well, I'm assuming you aren't that dense. sooo.. Osgood and Howard, that's a dynamic duo that strikes fear in the hearts of opponents everywhere! plus we could scrammble their names and call them Howgood! We'll have plenty of time to come up with similar jests while our boys our golfing after a 1st round exit to the flames.

As long as Dino can outlive Bowman he'll live to see himself in the hof!!! Though I've always had my theories as to Bowman's immortality. Poor poor Dino.

Don't bother discussing Shanahan, he's in. Done. No debate. Forsberg was one of the top reasons Colorado was one of the top teams in the league for so long and won 2 cups, plus Forsberg has also been one of Sweden's top guys for a while now too. He was Sakic's Federov. Regardless of whether or not he ever plays again, Forsberg is a hall of famer. Sundin will probably be in too, being the top scorer in leafs history is enough by itself to get him in (not to mention he still has some years left in him). And you forgot Jagr, who's a lock for the hall of fame, he's well above a point-per and could very well finish his career with more points than Yzerman. The thing is, you can't take these things as purely statistical. You have to facor a players image within the game, his marketablity, how important he is to a franchise, etc... you can't just say "How many points/cups wins/records?" Guys like Sundin and Modano have a step up on their competition because of their long tenures with their teams. Is that fair? I don't know (don't much care either), but it's the truth.

In Dom's defence he essentially faced 4 breakaways last night, though a few weren't full breakaways. He saved 1 of the 4, but let in 3 (and the fourth goal was a loose rebound). I'd like to see him saving a few more of these, but I'd also like to see our defence doing a better job of taking care of the puck a little better, but I doubt we'll see Lidstrom falling down and giving away a goal like that again. Here are some other goalies with poor starts this season. Kiprusoff - 19 games, 8 wins 8 losses 3 OT losses, 3.01 GAA and .888 SA% (I'd be more worried if Dom has that kind of a record after 19 games) Broduer - 17 Starts, 6 wins 10 losses 1 OT loss. 2.70 GAA and .894 SA% Roloson, Khabibulin, Toskala, Turco, and even Luongo hasn't looked particularly strong. Give it time, I think most of these guys will turn it around at some point.

It's a fast moving game, don't think the player always knows where his shot went. Plus, there are 5 other guys on the ice at the same time that probably aren't certain to the accuracy of the shot, as well as a bench full of teammates that don't necessarily know how hard or easy the save was. Sure, if it's a routine shot and a goalie acts a bit while saving it, the other team will know, but a good save can be made great with a little showmanship. That being said, I don't think Roy is the best goalie of our time (I think you could make a case for both Hasek and Broduer as being better). Roy played on some fantastic teams, but he always really knew how to intimidate. He got under people's skin, just like Holmstrom or Maltby, except Roy wasn't humble or muted off the ice. Psychologically it makes a difference. I mean, think about how different things might have been if Roy was quite and humble. Who knows, Montreal might have never even traded him (after all, his coach hating him is what caused the problems), he might have retired with two cup wins and around 400 wins.

Well, look at the first goal that went in. Our entire D got burned badly. The second was a lucky bounce for the Hawks. The fourth goal was a bad slipup by Lidstrom. Sure, he didn't face many shots, but he faced 4 breakaways last night. Is he playing badly right now? Yes. but we set him up to fail last night.

Are you kidding me? No no no, you've got to be joking. Aparently the few years since Roy retired we've completely forgotten what it's like to have a cocky, flair-filled, goalie doing the statue of liberty when he robes one of our players. I guarantee you his psychological presence was one of the main factors his teams won cups. He just made the opposition hate him (see "can't hear you with my cup rings in my ears" comments). Nothing was more satisfying than seeing Roy f-up with his cockyness to let in a goal in that game 6 against us. That burst the bubble on his intimidation and we stomped him the next game. Not a coincidence. Certainly the embellishment is going to piss off a player.

Yea, Vinny and Crosby are better players, and on the surface that should make you say "no duh, trade already!!" However, I just don't think either of them would fit in well with the system we have. Unless we're willing to completely change the style of play we've played for the past 15 years, then I don't think trading for them would do us much good. The fact is, on paper, both Tampa Bay and Pittsburg have more offensive tallent than the Wings, yet the wings are a better team. Why? Because we are a puck possession team with guys who know their roles. Maybe if Crosby could pull out an Yzerman and go from leading the NHL in scoring to being on the NHLs best defensive forward, maybe then it'd be worth it...but lets not break up the best duo in hockey just to cross our fingers. I'd have to vote NO at this point.

Honestly, whether some of these guys are first year hhofers is purely based on when they retire and who they retire with. Federov and Forberg I could easily see as first year guys. Even Larionov got snuffed in his first year of eligablity, and he spent the entire first half of his career embarassing all the NHL stars on the KLM line (the best line of the past 20-30 years).

What's wrong with my list then? heh 1 - EXACTLY! Modano is american and Recchi isn't. That automatically puts Modano ahead of Recchi. Not to mentioned, Modano is synonymous with Dallas Stars hockey. He's a one team guy, he's been a tremendous leader, his loyalty is impecable. He's everything the league wants to promote about itself. Even if the hall's decision was between Modano, and a bunch of guys better than him, Modano would get in, because his induction is what's best for hockey in the USA. Not saying it's right, just saying there is more to these things than skills. Marketing plays a major role. 2 - I said yes to Neidermayer, and I imagine everyone here would if it wasn't for the fact that we're still bitter from the playoffs ( i know i am). But you just can't logically say Neidermayer won't be in there. Norris, 3 cups, conn smyth. Only Lidstrom tops him with awards and stats (well, and Cheli, but Cheli is a decade older meaning he's had many more seasons to attain those stats).

I know this post comes from a while back. But since most of the guys on LGW seem to be in favor of getting more physical on the wings (and i've seen numerous threads with people posting hockey fights off youtube), what would you consider the value of fighting? It's psychological. Intimidate the opposition and rally the troops. If a goalie can make the opposition think he's robbing them time after time (when in reality his saves are routine), don't you think the opposing team's offence is more apt to become frusterated? That being said, there's more than that seperating the elite from the rest.

Mats Sundin - Yes Eric Lindros - No Peter Forsberg - Without a doubt in my mind, he's been the most courted and overly valued player in the past decade, plus his two cups / mvp make him no doubt. Jeremy Roenick - I doubt it, if he does it will be during a slow year in terms of retired players becoming eligable (though that could be long after all of us are dead). Rod Brind'Amour - No Mark Recchi - No Mike Modano - All time leading American scorer? no doubt, he'd get in on that alone. Keith Tkachuk - doubt it Chris Osgood - No Scott Niedermayer - Yes, most consider him a hall of famer. Brendan Shanahan - He's been considered a hall of famer for the past 5-6 years now. Sergei Fedorov - Yes, he has more points than any other Russian, he'll get in no matter what. Rob Blake - I doubt it, but that's mainly because of the large number of players that will be retiring in his era that are simply better than him. He could be overlooked easily. Alexander Mogilny - No Curtis Joseph - Yes (thought I don't personally think he deserves it) Teemu Selanne - Yes Gary Roberts - No way Nikolai Khabibulin - No, not a chance. I'm not sure why Modano, Federov, Shanahan, Niedermayer, Selanne, and Forsberg are on this list. They're practically guaranteed to get in eventually. The rest of the guys are relying on the future generations producing very few hall worthy players to get in.

I love how 1/4th of the season is done and we're already acting like it's time for the playoffs. There's a long ways to go. I'll make a few predictions. 1. Osgood will not be in the top 10 in save percentage by the end of the season, and I doubt any regular starters will be above .930 2. Hasek won't be below .900 save %... I'd expect a .915 or so. 3. Osgood and Hasek will probably split the regular season quite closely. You're not going to see a clear #1 here. When you have two potential #1s it would be stupid to play either of them the majority of the time. Both Hasek and Osgood are old (Hasek is considerably older), and both have had recent injury problems (Hasek having the worst of them). So, to play one goalie and not play the other could potentially backfire terribly. In fact, if we allow one of the two to dominate the games played category, we're probably setting them up for injury. And who really wants to go into the playoffs with Howard as our #2 (or even worst, our #1)? We all know this is a town that puts a lot of pressure on goalies, that'd be the kind of situation that could easily hurt his confidence as well as our confidence in him. You won't see a clear #1 until playoffs time. So this entire thread is really quite meaningless. That being said, I do expect Hasek to be our playoff goalie.

His level of play has never been at a proven level of excellence (the few games thus far this season isn't enough). That's the point. How many times do I have to repeat the same statistics? Every goalie in Detroit in the past two decades has yielded almost the exact same results as Osgood. We're always one of the top defensive clubs, our goalies almost always have twice as many wins as losses (if not way more), our goalies always hover around the same SV% and GAA. So, if you're someone on the selection committee, you can't logically overlook the fact that Osgood did the exact same thing in Detroit that every other goalie was doing. Winning. They don't put people in the hall of fame for doing what's expected of them, people are in there for going above and beyond expectations (unless you have Crosby type expectations). You answered your own question. Cujo is in no way a guarantee for the hall of fame. He is a big MAYBE. Also, sorry, I'm trying not to get personal. But that's an f'ing stupid thing to say, because (unlike Osgood) all of Hasek's truely great accomplishments were done with a team that wasn't even in contention for a presidents trophy. Sure, Osgood only has won 2, but he's come close 5-6 times because the Wings are always near the top of the standings. Buffalo? They were barely in contention for their devision crown. That kind of comparison hurts your argument. Sure, the 2002 team was one of the most stacked in NHL history (non-Montreal at least), but for the love of god, how many times must you people be reminded that Hasek's 2002 cup win was simply the cherry on top of a 20-layer cake. With or without the stacked teams Hasek played on he'd still be a hall of famer, one considered one of the all time best between the pipes. You can't say the same for Osgood. Please please please, don't reply unless you're going to say something new and intelligent, just let the thread die. If Cujo, Legacy, or Vernon played for us as long as Osgood they'd all be able to make that claim too.

Hudler, since day 1, has gotten garbage from most of the wings fans. Even at the start of this season everyone was badmouthing him and praising Flip. I still think Hudler deserves more icetime, but I'd prefer he got some respect from the fan base.

There's a DVD set called Detroit Red Wings: A Celebration of Champions. It's got games from 2002, 1997, and 1998 playoffs on it.

You're looking at a different tallent level in the NHL than in the SEL. That, and you might also be looking at a difference in style / tactics there too. I don't know enough about the SEL to say for sure, I just know there could be potentially different circumstances. I just think that Olympic hockey has always been more exciting, and this is with teams that lack the chemistry developed over a long NHL season. I think with the added familiarity the space could easily work in favor of the top tallent. I'm not sure if there would be a surge in goals, but certainly the added space would allow for a more fluid and flowing game which I think would add excitement regardless of the final score. I don't think you need 7-10 goals in a game for it to be exciting.

I always found what caused this for me was how painfully long hockey games can be. 3 20 min periods, with long intermissions, commercial breaks, and potential overtime?... It's gotten a little better with the faster puck drops, but games can still take an entire evening to watch. I watched almost every game last season, but I'll be honest, I normally split my time between the game and a book (unless it was a particularly exciting game)... I dont think I was sober for any of the playoff games, so it kept my interest at that point, but the regular season was painful at times. However, I still find it more exciting than football, baseball, and basketball.

Yea, but with more ice if 3 guys converged on Ovechkin, then two guys would be open. It would be like giving your ball to Shaq in the paint, having him draw two defenders, and kicking it out to the open man.

well, first, because of the greater difference in tallent, the high tallent players would be able to break free easier. Imagine the moves Datsyuk and Zetterberg could pull off with more space? Second, it's much harder for a team to keep the puck on the perimeter with added space.

Also, one other thing to consider when thinking about the hall of fame is this: They usually only induct 3-4 guys per year. Usually, at least one of those inductions goes to a builder/coach or ref. Some of the best hockey players (statistically) are just now retiring and will really backlog the hall. Not to mention, the hall of fame is slowly slowly filling in all their gaps now that the iron curtain is down and it's okay to acknowledge that Soviet hockey absolutely dominated North American. I mean, Valeri Kharlamov was just recently inducted (the only other exclusively Soviet player in there other than Tretiak). I think, considering how dominant the soviets were (in the 9 years they participated in the olympics for hockey they won 7 gold, 1 silver, and 1 bronze) you're going to see more legendary Russians in the hall of fame (like Igor's KLM linemates and such). I think it's going to be less and less likely to see debatable inclusions in the hall of fame (at least for a while).