RedWings Gone Wild

You're making two BIG assumptions. 1. That the hall of fame selection committee is that mechanical and mathematical in its selections (I highly doubt it) and 2. That anyone outside of Detroit shares your opinion on Osgood. I'm sorry, but I really don't think any goalie to play for Detroit in the past couple of decades deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on what they accomplished while in Detroit. Hasek and Cujo's potential entrence into the hall isn't in any way based on their stay in Detroit, we're just an astrix in their careers. Vernon proved he was a champion with Calgary, so he has a leg up on Osgood (though I doubt he'll get in either). Hasek will always be that guy who single-handedly dominated the league with Buffalo. From 1974-75 until Hasek left Buffalo they had only missed the playoffs 3 times (only once with Hasek). When he left they missed 3 times in a row. Look at the goaltending hole in Colorado with Roy gone, or the excessive playoff choking of Turco in the absence of Broduer... and just imagine the gap a retired Broduer will leave in New Jersey. Even the most imaginative Osgood fans can't say he is responcible for Detroit's success, you can't make that claim about any goalie we've had since Sawchuk. Osgood started playing for us regularly in 1993-94, the previous season we were 47-28-9, the first season with Osgood we were 46-30-8. Next to no difference. Our last season before trading Osgood we were 49-20-9-4, the following season we were 51-17-10-4.. again, very little difference. In fact, on both occasions we had better records without Osgood (though the difference is minute). We've won 3 recent cups, 2 with goalies not named Osgood. Since we obtained Osgood we've had 3 Selke trophy winners, and 6 Norris trophy winners (and a hand full of guys that got runner up). The last time a Wing won a Vezina? 1954-55 (Sawchuk, tho back then a Vezina was basically a Jennings). You just can't rationally say that any Detroit goalie deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, because it has never EVER been our goaltending that's made the difference between Presidents trophy and out of the playoffs, or between cup and first round exit (our 1st round exits are purely the fault of cold scorers, not poor goaltending). We could put most any half-way decent goalie between the pipes and he'd have plenty of wins. If Osgood won another cup as a starter, or got above Tony Esposito in wins, he may be able to get in based on stats(and who knows, he may). However, I doubt it. That being said, claiming Osgood deserves to be in the hall of fame on the basis that there are a lack of clear hall of fame favorites really kind of belittles the honor.

Honestly, I always thought 80s oilers hockey was boring to watch with the high scoring and all. So, I'm not really looking for a drastic lift in the points. However, I've always been a real big fan of Olympic hockey, I think it beats out NHL hockey for 1 simple reason, the amount of ice. It's so much fun to see the skilled players with more room to play. I'm aware this won't happen because a majority of the stadiums probably can't accomodate larger skating surfaces, but i'll keep dreaming.

Hey hey hey.. Save that kind of talk for colorado fans

Reminds me of that playoff goal Federov had years back where he cleared the puck, it hit a crack in the boards, hit the goalies skate and went in... I've been looking for a vid of that for years. Anywho, I almost wish it could be a better looking goal for JR.. Yzerman's 400th goal has to be one of the best looking milestone goals of all time.

Hey, wasn't there a chick goalie in the NHL once upon a time? This could be the beginning of women in the NHL.

Honestly, I still resent Avery for trying to go after Cheli on a number of occasions after we got rid of him. Not that Cheli wasn't probably asking for it...but that's just me. Avery is okay, but I don't miss having him on the wings, yea he has things that make him an asset, but he isn't someone I would like to have during the pressures of playoff Hockey. Imagine him against the Flames or Ducks last playoffs. Sure, he'd exact some revenge, but it'd be the kind that would leave us a skater short for lengthy periods of time. To me, the real revenge is winning the game, and nobody can ensure that from the confines of the penalty box. That being said, comparing Avery to Philly is rude, because Philly has just been lame. There is no dignity in what they have done this season with the cheap hits and such. At the very least Avery is willing to face off 1v1 with anyone in the league, and I'll always respect that.

I know, I almost stopped myself, now I feel guilty. Anywho, I had heard that Gordy only did it once on a few occasions (but hell, if you already have a goal and an assist in a night... then you've already done your job, let someone else fight). I think this is one of those little tidbits of info that is mentioned at least once per season during Wings games (anytime anyone is close to the hat trick basically).

Yea, but I would expect a dropoff due to the extreme crappyness of goaltending in the 80s and early 90s. Based on GAA and Save% Fuhr has no place in the hall of fame. I mean the man's 2 best save percentages were .901 and .903 (and his only two above 90% might I add). Yea, it's not his fault that noone on the Oilers have ever heard the term defence before, but I'm just saying, it's not an era youngsters will be looking to for great goaltending. Osgood comes at an age of resurgence for goaltending and defence, and it will be interesting to see what the Hall of Fame does. I think it can go one of two routs. 1. let in the elite top of the top goalies (Hasek, Belfour, Broduer, Roy) and leave out those that are on the border, or 2. it can open the flood gates and let in a number of the guys on your list... I think if they let in Osgood they'd have to let in Barrasso, Vanbiesbrouck, Joseph, Richter, Vernon.. and some of these other guys who really didn't define excelence in their position. I mean, honestly, what seperates Osgood from these other guys besides the quality of team he was on? I can't possibly see how the Hall of fame is going to treat this, for all I know Carey could get in and Hasek could be snuffed, but I've always felt that a Hall of Fame is for those that truly change the way the game is played or really define excelence in some manner. I see Osgood as a amazing guy/player, but I just don't see the game of Hockey being very different if he never laced up the skates.

It's tough to support this 10 per generation claim because I would argue that Fuhr and Osgood are of different generation. Anyways, I don't see the hall of fame letting Osgood in on the basis that they don't have enough goalies in the hall from our era.

Just remember, if every fan thought like you we probably would have traded Yzerman like Bowman wanted, because at the time it was the general consensus that we couldn't win with him as our leader.

I hope you know you're including Scotty Bowman in that rant. Bowman's on the selection commity and he has always hated Dino. I think the year Scotty is off of it is the year Dino gets in. Funny you should mention Moog, since he's kind of like an Osgood. Racking up wins on the top teams of his era, but being outshined by the other goalies he was teamed with (Fuhr). I'll admit, of that list Osgood has the best chance. However, I highly doubt any one of those goalies will be in the hall of fame. Maybe Richter, but that'd be more based on rewarding American fans and the Rangers, and not based on skill. In my opinion Cujo doesn't deserve to be in, but I've heard him discussed as a future hall of famer on numerous occasions, so who knows. One player you left off that has a shot at getting in is Vernon (Conn Smyth, Jennings, 2 cups as a starter, 10th all time wins). The thing is, there is a batch of goalies in the NHL right now that just keep compiling monster stats, and more than likely they will be getting into the hall over the Barrassos and Osgoods. I mean, Giguere has almost accomplished as much, or more than most anyone you mentioned (conn smyth in a losing effort, a cup win, already has 160 wins). Kiprusoff (Vezina, in contention for Hart trophy, already has 24 shutouts + 126 wins). and don't forget your Luongos, Lundqvists, etc... Sure, none of these guys will be hall of famers if they retired today (or even in the next 4-5 years).. but they could easily make people forget about the lesser goalies of the past 2 decades.

It's nice that we've found to a way to relate the age old debate of nature vs nurture to hockey. A good list of NHL hockey families: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_families_in_the_NHL

Gordie who?

Yzerman, Federov, Coffey, Lidstrom, Fetisov.. all hall of famers. Dino will probably be one too. And you forgot to mention Igor Larionov (who was playing his best NHL hockey that season) So that's 7 hall of famers.. and that season they won 62 games. Uh... 7 hall of famers on a team... how's that NOT stacked? Just because we've had teams stacked even moreso doesn't make our squad in 95-96 any less the favorite. 96, 97, and 98... but none of this arguing changes the fact that Osgood never defined success in Detroit. We won with him once and without him twice. That's the real difference. Before Hasek Buffalo wasn't a playoff team, they were in the playoffs every year he was their starter... after he left they again missed the playoffs. Roy, 4 cups, neither team has won a cup since he left... Broduer is the only constant on the Devil's cup winning teams, and they sure won't be winning one for a while after he leaves. That is what tarnishes Osgood's legacy. He was NEVER essential. He played his role well, with dignity and skill, but he just wasn't the difference maker. That's what stops him from being an elite goalie. If Detroit never got Vernon, Hasek, Cujo, or Legacy.. and Osgood was our goalie through all these seasons he might be a hall of famer.. but that's not how things happened, and Osgood just isn't a hall of famer.

Two things. 1. Discussions change topic over many many posts. 2. He was explaining his opinion that Datsyuk isn't slumping and is in fact a direct cause for Zetterberg's success. I really fail to see how you would need explaining to see how that relates to the "topic".

I really fail to see what makes his post convoluted ... Anyways, go get some tampons and relax.

Honestly, at least Pavelec will get a chance for success in Atlanta. We would never give him the chance. We have Howard waiting already, and we're the kind of team that doesn't usually give a chance to young goalies anyways. It's better for Pavelec to be in Atlanta.

People were asking for Hasek's head on a pike with less games played.

Uhh, I don't like to watch shows with such presumptious titles.. that and without the perpetually coked up and athletically challenged Tom Arnold it just isn't any fun to watch.

Nicely said.. Every goal scorer needs a playmaker. If Dasyuk spends his season getting goals for Zetterberg and Holms... I won't be complaining.

Sigh, i feel like a jerk because I posted this elsewhere tonight and didn't realize this thread existed. So here is my opinion on Osgood and the Hall of Fame: Depends how high Osgood goes up the wins column, but IMO Osgood will always be remembered as the guy who won a whole lot of games with the best team of the late 90s and early 2000s. Look at the other elite goalies of our era: Marty with New Jersey, Roy with Montreal and Colorado, Dom with Buffalo... these guys are synonymous with netminding in those locations during their runs... They were indisputably the #1. They are guys who were present for all the success and who were (and will be in Marty's case) unreplaceable in net after their departure. Unfortunately for Osgood, he is replaceable and has proven to be on 3 occasions (he has lost starting jobs to Vernon and Legacy, and we got Dom because of our early exits with Osgood). Osgood is a good goalie, but Detroit has always been a town that pads a goalie's regular season resume regardless of who is in net. Think about how many hall-of-fame defensemen Osgood has had in front of him. Murphy, Coffey, Lidstrom, Chelios, Fetisov... as well as 3 Selke trophy winners (Yzerman, Draper, Federov). It's hard to rack up losses when you're only facing 15-20 shots per game and the opposing goalie is facing 30-40. That's why no matter who we've had in net over the past 14-15 yrs, they've racked up the wins...Hasek, Osgood, Vernon, Legacy, Cujo... People always point to Osgood's seasons with St. Louis and the Islanders as proof he's a top goalie without the wings... but Garth Snow had a winning record in 2001-2002 too, and was 1 game below .500 in 2002-2003 with the same Islanders teams... and Snow was always a lowsy player. So I think the NY Islanders have been wrongfully panned as a place void of tallent during Osgood's stay. Last year Legacy had a winning record with St. Louis, and Osgood was playing with a St. Louis team still capable of getting to the playoffs (unlike Legacy). So don't think the hall of fame is going to look at that as a sign of hall worthy goaltending. I know I'm coming off like I'm attacking Osgood, but I'm just trying to offset the natural bias most of us have as Wings fans. My opinion isn't a popular one in Detroit, but i'd bet that it's the more prevolent one around the league. Osgood has been great, but he will always be overshadowed by the fact that the team has continually used Osgood as a second option as opposed to our first. IMO Osgood will always be Detroit's Ringo Starr, a tallent in his own right, but destined to be outshined by the guys playing in front of him.

Honestly, I don't mind that opinion at all.. but if it's an opinion you're going to have then don't complain about players not having loyalty. That's my point. If "screw loyalty, lets have the best team" is our #1 concern as fans, then we can't really complain when players have their own egocentric prerogative and persue bloated contracts instead of a cup with Detroit. We all know Dats could have gotten more cash elsewhere.

I'm not at all worried about Datsyuk.. He has ALWAYS been one of the streakiest scorers in the NHL. He's the kind of guy who can go 10 games without a point and then get 15 in the next 5. The fact that he's averaging a point per game without being superbly impressive just means that he'll have a monster year when he finally gets going.

Depends how high Osgood goes up the wins column, but IMO Osgood will always be remembered as the guy who won a whole lot of games with the best team of the late 90s and early 2000s. Look at the other elite goalies of our era: Marty with New Jersey, Roy with Montreal and Colorado, Dom with Buffalo... these guys are synonymous with netminding in those locations during their runs... They were indisputably the #1. They are guys who were present for all the success and who were (and will be in Marty's case) unreplaceable in net after their departure. Unfortunately for Osgood, he is replaceable and has proven to be on 3 occasions (he has lost starting jobs to Vernon and Legacy, and we got Dom because of our early exits with Osgood). Osgood is a good goalie, but Detroit has always been a town that pads a goalie's regular season resume regardless of who is in net. Think about how many hall-of-fame defensemen Osgood has had in front of him. Murphy, Coffey, Lidstrom, Chelios, Fetisov... as well as 3 Selke trophy winners (Yzerman, Draper, Federov). It's hard to rack up losses when you're only facing 15-20 shots per game and the opposing goalie is facing 30-40. That's why no matter who we've had in net over the past 14-15 yrs, they've racked up the wins...Hasek, Osgood, Vernon, Legacy, Cujo... People always point to Osgood's seasons with St. Louis and the Islanders as proof he's a top goalie without the wings... but Garth Snow had a winning record in 2001-2002 too, and was 1 game below .500 in 2002-2003 with the same Islanders teams... and Snow was always a lowsy player. So I think the NY Islanders have been wrongfully panned as a place void of tallent during Osgood's stay. Last year Legacy had a winning record with St. Louis, and Osgood was playing with a St. Louis team still capable of getting to the playoffs (unlike Legacy). So don't think the hall of fame is going to look at that as a sign of hall worthy goaltending. I know I'm coming off like I'm attacking Osgood, but I'm just trying to offset the natural bias most of us have as Wings fans. My opinion isn't a popular one in Detroit, but i'd bet that it's the more prevolent one around the league. Osgood has been great, but he will always be overshadowed by the fact that the team has continually used Osgood as a second option as opposed to our first. IMO Osgood will always be Detroit's Ringo Starr, a tallent in his own right, but destined to be outshined by the guys playing in front of him.

My exact quote was "I can't believe how many people are willing to trade Datsyuk for Vinny." not "I can't believe how many people WANT to trade Datsyuk."... So, read carefully next time. I'm aware that nobody is out trying to convince management to trade Datsyuk, I merely think it's ironic how we expect loyalty out of our players (despite the fact that they can get a few extra bucks elsewhere), and yet label them expendible if we can better our team without them. It just makes me feel that if you're willing to trade someone who has shown up every season to play hard, has signed a long term deal to stay with Detroit, and has been an all around loyal guy... well then you lose the moral high ground to complain about guys like Federov, Shanny, and Schneids leaving for an extra buck. It'd be a different story if Datsyuk wasn't showing up to play hard or earn his paycheck (ala' Lang).