sticknmove

"I've already stated that I haven't played hockey. Hell, it was inferred in that post you just quoted. Try and keep up." He was being sarcastic, it is painfully obvious you didn't play. You were wrong about Carolina, so next.... I am still waiting for a successful team that had NO enforcer type whatsoever for the entire year?

NorrisNick as stated above, Carolina did in fact have a enforcer on the team, and a lot of time in the lineup for a good part of the year. You are not goinng to get away from this, it is another example of where you opened your mouth without having a clue what you were talking about. "Short memory span? The '06 Hurricanes had no enforcer. Nor did any one of their regulars fight even more than a couple times. And I hope you realize for every cup winning team, there is a league full of teams that didn't win it all. That said, it was mostly stated to toss another meaningless and wholly unsupported statistic back into the fray." I am fully aware of the fact that there are a lot of unsuccessful teams in the NHL, A) i know, however that has nothing to do with the point, EVERY SUCCESSFUL team besides us has had an true enforcer in some form form and B) you were wrong about the Hurricanes, dead wrong. And to make things easier on you I am going to give you a cake walk. Name one playoff team the last 10 years besides us that did not have an enforcer at some capacity or another throughout the year? I'll be waiting.

It is true, it is not an attack, or even a negative statement it is just fact. I mean the proof is in the pudding, the players want an enforcer on the bench, and am I wrong when I say they know best? Nick still waiting on all those great teams not carrying any type of enforcer.

wow, great point. Well besides the fact you failed to make one. Dont count Norton into last years toughness? He had 1/3 of the team FM. So lets take him out, we were weak last year, weaker this year. *F$CK it, Wade Brookbank can be picked off waivers. Bring him here,and judging by the reactions of many regarding Downey, things would get really bitter*

"And I bet you 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't on successful teams either." Haha, I cant even get upset anymore I just have to laugh. You are absolutely clueless. Name me 1 stanley cup winning team that did not carry an enforcer of some magnitude. Now re-read the question b/c I really dont want to waste time answering one of your sideways arguments. Heck, you know what, you wont be able to find one stanley cup FINALIST who carried no enforcer (wether he be middle or heavyweight) all year. Ill be waiting. PS- the argument of not playing hockey does not hold true all the time, however in this circumstance it is a very good argument, why? Because it explains your inability to grasp certain aspects of the game. Now come back with snide comments, sideways arguments or whatever logic you want.

"Don't bother trying to understand him. You'll only give yourself a headache." Now you know how we feel when trying to comprehend your backwards logic regarding hockey.

"And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what?" Who knows, you would though realize that enforcers in hockey are critical to a teams chemistry and overall success.

Fine I will stop whining Son of a Wing, and next year when the dirty hit parade starts, like it did throughout last year, and we have guys getting hurt, and missing games, I do not want you want to hear any whining out of you especially about suspensions, fines, etc. I mean we all saw how much suspensions help us, remember Prongers suspension after the hit on Homer! wait, nevermind..

well, we will actually, believe it or not, be softer then we were last year. Haha, well hunting season is open I guess. We lose Markov, Bertuzzi (for the short time we had him) and Norton. Pick up Drake, and, well no one that fancies grit hockey so its pointless naming them. so f*cking disapointing....

"here we go again....i welcome you all to version 19.1 of the "Enforcer vs No Enforcer" thread." First, if you are so "annoyed" with it why do you take the time to contribute to every thread where this is duscussed? Second of all, this is more of the fans wanting an enforcer sulking and venting b/c it has become clear we will not have one, again... Ryno is big but not very physical, not very physical at all. "Skating is OK for his size, but needs continued improvement ... needs to add strength to his slim 6-foot-5 frame and improve his fitness ... has not demonstrated a take-charge physical style to match his outstanding size ... could be more of a power forward if he added a hitting, grinding element ..." Dont get me wrong, this guy has a huge upside and will be a weapon for the wings, the sky is the limit with his size combined great speed, hands, and ability to get back defensivly. However he is still developing, and I think a year or two in Grand Rapids would do wonders for this future star "Downey has been terrible on the ice. Fighting skills can't make up for that." wow, suprise suprise. He has not been noticeably bad at all, played 2 games (only saw about 5 mins last night) and the first game tallied a goal. And being all flash and finesse on the ice (majority of the team) cant make up for lack of skills fighting.

Downey is as good as gone, I mean no matter what they refuse to give a tough guy a roster spot and it is getting really fuc*ing annoying. How many guys are going to have to get blown up by questionable/malicious hits. (please do not start with the "blah blah having Downey would not stop any of these hits" argument) I am not in the mood really to argue, at this point there is no use, the anti enforcer fans got there way, again. And to be honest with Holland running things I am starting to see why so many here are anti enforcer, I mean hell, when in Rome ya know. On the upside we will instead have a career AHL'er in Hartigan who brings something this team despretly needs, a non physical 4th liner. Or we could go with Grigs, who has had a horrible camp, and obviously should start the season in Grand Rapids, but hey, maybe he will improve lets keep him up and see. Then there is Ellis, and no disrespect to the guy at all, he is a great player, and been in the organization for a while I just do not think he is the one, out of all our choices, that should be up. Ryno, ya sounds great, he's my pick....Give me a f*cking break. But then again, my pick Downey and how beneficial it would be to have him on the roster really are arbitrary and not shared by the ones making the real decisions. So maybe I am just bitter.

good convo, kp I am going to have to agree with you about the reality of Downey making the team, I to just dont see it happening. Its unfortunate I guess, but again, as you said, Holland does not want anything to do with having a Downey type. Well at least a gread thread/conversation was sparked by Downey, however that is as far as i think any of us will see him as a Wing.

great pics bro, thanks

"Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup." Some times I think it is a sense of anti-reality more then anything else, and I am honestly not trying to be a d*ck. I mean the Red Wings have tried the "powerplay is our enforcer" lineup the last couple years and it has not brought us a cup so it amazes me that people like you, who like us all want nothing more to bring the cup back to Detroit will refuse the notion of trying a little something new and have a enforcer on the roster for certain nights. And do not give me that BS that "we had Norton blah blah blah and he didn't do sh*t for us", Norton was NEVER given a fair shake here, that guy was in Grand Rapids before he showed up to camp that summer. People around here seem to love reminding everyone that "WE MADE IT TO THE WCF LAST YEAR WITHOUT A FIGHTER AND IT WOULD OF MADE NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAYS IF WOULD OF HAD ONE, PSSSH" and a true statement that is, but much like opie I am more concerned with the Stanley Cup, that is opposed to the WCF, and I know we made it there enforcerless, and congrats, we had another amazing year last year but I do remember watching a stanley cup that featured 2 teams, both of them might I add carried "enforcer types" on their roster, and no those types werent playing in the finals, or consistently at any point of the playoffs, that is nothing new, sometimes I think people here think they discovered asomething when they proclaim "HOW MUCH DID PARROS HELP?? HE DIDN'T EVEN DRESS IN THE PLAYOFFS".....Well no sh*t Einstein, enforcers tend to sit postseason as teams opt to go with more depth because the grind (that being amount of crucial games in such short time). That is nothing new, but Anaheim and Ottawa if nothing else proves having an enforcer or enforcers does not HURT your chances of success one inkling.

CLICK TO SEE WHO!

Norris you seem to be oblivious to the fact that enforcers are going to be as agile and outskill a 1st, or 2nd liner. That is not what they bring to the table, they specialize in another part of the game, the physical side, which includes limited minutes and a lot of the time a scrap or two which wether you like to admit it or not, is a HUGE element in North American Hockey. So for you to proclaim this and that about the finesse side of the game from a teams respected tough guy is equivlent to me saing Datsuk has no business on this team b/c he cant square off with Colton Orr and hold his own. To much of one thing is never good, that is a universal rule that rings true a high majority of the time. A great team needs all the elements of the game, in a balance that allows them to dominate every aspect.

Ya, I mean they are actually ridiculously ugly.

"Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react." You cannot seriously tell me you do not think that enforcers have any power of deterence whatsoever. I know they cant, and dont deter everything, or even a majority of it, but you would have to be out of your mind to believe they have no preventative influence whatsoever.

"If Downey is the only availible answer for a perceived "enforcer" then bring him in...I'd still like to see a more threatening enforce" I definitly hear what you are saying, and you make a good point. But i mean, Holland and enforcers.....Come on, when I heard Downeys name attached with "possible spot" I almost pissed my pants. I guess all i am saying is Downey is as enforcer as we are going to get going to get around here as long as present mgmt is around, and I am quite content with it that way. He does lose some fights I will give you that, but t that will happen, losing some fights, when you're job is policing a NHL squad night after night...... Actually f*ck it, lets buy out Laraque.

"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will." I beg to differ: "Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways; ***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce? SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates. DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice? SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.*** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game; ***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers – what do the enforcers enforce? The evolution of the enforcers is very simple – there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s. At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket. They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman – he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup. So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’. So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland – best fighter in the American Hockey League – he gets John Ferguson – his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists. What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play – they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy – he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.*** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTINUED ***Some people say fighting is part of hockey – why is fighting part of hockey? Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it – no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you – you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say – ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.*** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry. "I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert. But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR! lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!

YA WHAT ARE YOU THINKING WE COULD HAVE MEECH UP INSTEAD!!!!!!! ps: I am starting a little pool if you want to call it that, $5 dollars entry and you have to pick the name of the first red wing who will get blown the f*ck up (franzen, lebda, cleary, and so on you guys know) by a cheap hit. WHOSE IN

It was actually a slugfest, both guys stayed open and were throwing bombs. Ivanas prolly got a slight edge, but much respect to Norton who is doing his job. People talk a lot of this and that around here about guys being bad fighters, and making comments like "blah blah blah wow Norton lost again", or "Downey isnt that good of a fighter". You are kidding yourselvs, no neither of them is in the elite class of NHL fighters, and in this day and age with the new rules there are only, depending on whom you ask, 12-18 elite scrappers. Ya got Brian McGrattan, Parros, Boogy, Andy Peters, Donald Brashear, King George, Jannsen, Orr, Ivanas, Godard (when he's ever up), Koci, Gratton, Fedoruk (this is arguable at this point in his career), Shelley, DJ King, Wade Belak, Ben Eager (that is being generous), Hordichuk, and I am sure I missed one or 2. Those are the "elite" group of NHL tough guys. And it really is unfair to hold Norton or Downey to those guys standards, however Norton and Downey have fought 90% of that list and came out of it fine, they are both excellent, excellent roll players who go out night after night knowing they are there more or less to fight in order to keep the opposition honest and it pisses me off when ppl totally disrespect them and what they do. I understand if you do not think Detroit needs a fighter, that is fine, but in making your point i hope you guys dont resort to baseless insults towards downey like you guys did with norton.

I will tell you exactly why people are excited, because now if one of our many "finesse" guys gets blown the f*ck up like they did on SOOOOOOOOO many occasions last year we have someone to step in and give the culprit more then a one palm facewash over the refs shoulder. And stop harping on the fact we went to the western conf. finals last year and nothing would have been changed if we had an enforcer, i agree with you to an extent, and no one is taking that away from the boys in red sweaters. However is it that mind boggling that maybe we try to toss in a little bit of an element we lacked last year? What blows my mind is that some around here are to crying over the fact we have a legitimate tough guy on the verge of making the team b/c enforcers are "worthless" and "we made the WCF without an enforcer". I think both myself and the majority of the people here supporting the idea of an enforcer on our team (why in heck this is even a discussion surrounding a HOCKEY team in the NHL is beyond me) acknowlege the fact we did it last year without a policeman, the real disagreement between the 2 factions on these boards is one wants a guy on our team rdy to go each night (even though he wont be dressing night in and out) and protect his teamates at all costs when they are run at in a gross or neglegent manner (ie Homer, Franzen, Lebda, Cleary, etc) and the other faction wants none of that "worthless enforcer crap" they want guys like Meech, up instead. Like it or not, Detroit doesnt look like they are going to be the physically/enforcement challenged team they were for the last 2 years and for those of us who realize fighting and enforcement are as deeply woven in the game of North American Ice Hockey as the icing rule is, well i guess, things are looking good.

Downey, he is perfect. Gritty guy who works hard night in and night out and would do anything for his teamates. Granted i wouldnt expect him in the lineup ALL of the time, he still would remain a huge asset when need be. Also Downey is not another Norton, he has a career fight card of 34-30 and 20 some draws and has gone with every tough guy in the NHL over the past years. He is the right guy, we are never going to get Laraque or Boogard so I do not see who else out there would be "the guy". However I havent gotten my hopes up just yet because I can still see him getting cut, so i guess ill just keep my fingers crossed hoping. ***EDIT*** if anyone cares here are his exact numbers, someone had allready posted them a couple days ago, and I remembered him saying he ot it from dropyourgloves.com so I went there. Total 161 Fights (.268 per Game) Career 34-30-24 Not quite Probert numbers but not to bad, definitly would fill the "enforcer" role we have been missing

Hey all, long time since I have been around. Wings are looking great, thanks also for posting the link for the center ice online came in incredibly handy. Looking pretty good out there i have to say, Downey with a goal (helps but still not totally getting my hopes up) and just an overall dominating performance. Gotta love the youngsters out there playing the way they are, its going to be another great year if this keeps up which i am sure it will.