StormJH1

First, thank you for giving a nod to Kozlov, who is kind of the forgotten Red Wing in all this dynasty talk because he was gone in the Hasek trade, and therefore, not a part of the 2002 Cup. But he was critically important to this team, especially in the playoffs. So many people overlooked him because he was the "other Russian guy" compared to Fedorov, but he was kinda like the "Johan Franzen" guy on those 97 and 98 teams. And it's telling that he's been stuck in Atlanta for 6 seasons now, but still put up a 76-point season as Fedorov is winding down his career (Fedorov is 2 or 3 years older). I did say that Yzerman was the more improtant player, and I stand by that. But there is an element of "Isiah Thomas" to the way Detroiters view Yzerman, which is to say that he is the guy that everyone liked and got credit for everything, but there were quieter guys (Lidstrom; Dumars) always in the background, without which none of it would likely have been possible. I don't even think this is a question without the '08 Cup and '09 Finals entering into the equation. Also, you have to understand that while Lidstrom was generally considered our "best" defenseman at most times throughout his career, the 97/98 Wings were viewed as much of a defensive "system" team as they were a collection of Hall of Famers on defense. Lidstrom was appreciated back then, but he also played next to Paul Coffey for several years, and had guys like Konstantinov and Larry Murphy helping him for the early Cups. It wasn't until those guys left, and after Lidstrom put in many more impressive years that I think it was fully understood how important Lidstrom was. I make this point only to suggest that a comparison of Yzerman and Lidstrom in 1997 is probably unfair, since they were at different points in their careers at that time.

Huge Lidstrom fan, but I look at it this way. In 1983, the Minnesota North Stars drafted Brian Lawton #1 overall, when they could've drafted Steve Yzerman, Pat LaFontaine, or Tom Barasso: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1983e.html The team went onto be extremely medicore for the next 10 seasons, making it to one Cup Final (where they got slaughtered by Pittsburgh) and then getting sold and moving to Dallas. Suppose that Lidstrom had been in the '83 draft instead of the '89 draft. Which player--Yzerman or Lidstrom--do you feel would've been more likely to turn around the fate of the North Stars? I don't think there's any question that it's Yzerman. It's a little bit unfair because in the 80's (as in the 90's) there was a stigma against European captains, and it's easier for a Canadian boy like Yzerman to become a "fan favorite" than it would've been for Lidstrom. But you HAVE to factor those things into it, and my gut tells me that there's no way the North Stars leave Minnesota if they had drafted Yzerman. Yzerman would've energized the fanbase and willed them to win. The North Stars had great players like Ciccarelli and Larry Murphy at times, but this wasn't enough. Sorry for the out of context example, but it's so hard to evaluate Lidstrom and Yzerman separate from the Red Wings aura and all of the other great players that helped us win championships (most notably Fedorov, Shanahan, and Osgood) that I find it helps to think out-of-the-box.

Agreed. The weaknesses of this CBA are being revealed piece-by-piece. We're seeing absurd things happen for the purpose of trying to get around the salary cap. And as messed up as the NBA's CBA is, they actually have far more regulation in terms of max contracts, mid-level exceptions, and slotted rookie salaries. The NHL looks like the Wild freaking West, and it's embarassing to me. This started with the absurd DiPietro 15-year deal. As dumb as that was, we've seen milder versions of it a dozen times over with Ovechkin, Mike Richards, and now Hossa. And the whole point is to give guys enough guranteed money that they're basically set for life, and hoping that inflation will make your investment look like a bargain years later. But what I guess I didn't understand is that the cap hit in any given season is simply the AVERAGE of the player's contract per season. IS THAT ACTUALLY TRUE?!? To my knowledge, that is not how it works in the NFL. What possible reason could there be for using the average salary as a cap hit, instead of the actual salary? Heck, any moron can figure out that if you make 90% of your money in years 1 through 8 of a 12-year deal, that an NHL player would gladly forfeit years 9-12 (by retiring) if structuring a deal like that allows the club to pay them more and spread it out over a longer period of years. And what the Blackhawks did was NOT fundamentally different than what Holland did with the Zetterberg and Franzen deals. To me, the difference in "degree" between 2 fake years and 4 fake years is almost irrelevant b/c if all three players retired at age 38 (and you somehow knew or expected that) then all contracts "cheat". Except that the NHL was stupid enough to allow contracts to be structured like this in the first place. Unbelievable!

Yeah, agreed. The Wings tried with Grigorenko. One need look no further than Darren Helm or Ville Leino for examples of how hard it is for "over-ripe" prospects to get a call-up on the Wings, and the Wings bent a lot of their own rules & practices in bringing Igor up for an "audition". Not only was he basically blackmailing the club with the "Russia card" (and I think he was owed like a $1 million bonus if we kept him to a certain point), but his conditioning was terrible, and he wasn't even producing with the Griffins. Compare his readiness to somebody like Ville Leino, and Igor wasn't even close. http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=56783 And he hasn't done much since then to make me believe we made the wrong choice. 2 goals in 36 KHL (Russian League) games with Ufa?

I live in Minnesota now, good riddance. 75% of the fans worship the guy because of their own inferiority complex over their Wild squad. The guy made the product here as boring as possible for 8 seasons, and had one run past the 1st round to show for it. Big effin' deal. The one Cup he won in 1995 (hmm...drawing a blank on what team they beat that year...can't seem to remember) was a strike-shortened season, and he did it with 3 HoF'ers on defense. Then, he proceeded to miss the Playoffs altogether next season. Enjoy.

(1) I'm not done with Jimmy Howard yet. He hasn't wowed with his limited regular season performances yet, but if you judged Chris Osgood based on pretty much ANY 6 regular season games from last year, you'd probably conclude he was one of the worst goalies in the NHL. (2) It's not like the Wings are forfeiting all hope of picking up a veteran backup on the caliber of a Conklin or Nittimiyaki mid-way through the season. And since we aren't paying huge coin to Marian Hossa (and Samuelsson & Hudler are also leaving), there's a chance we'll actually have some breathing room under the Cap, which pretty much nobody expected. (3) Nittimiyaki is a Finn who would be asking a defensive corps made out of a ton of Swedes to dive all over the place in front of him. Not saying it would be a problem, but with the exception of Filppula, this team favors Swedes over Finns, and it's not secret that teams play harder for some teammates than they do for others.

This team hasn't missed the Playoffs since I was in early grade school. It's easy to make excuses for JLA but it's a sub-par arena in a sub-par urban area. There will come a day when fans won't want to make excuses for it anymore. I'm all for keeping the Wings downtown, but if you're going to charge what they charge for tickets, you have to have a better facility than that. Otherwise, there's going to be fewer and fewer seats filled up that are visible on television (i.e. the lower bowl)

The Hossa thing obviously impacts the decision on Hudler, but honestly, I'm not obsessing over whether or not Hossa comes back, and I doubt I'm alone. We always understood him to be a one-year addition, and then we would see what would happen afterwards. I think the presumption was that if it "worked", we'd probably win the Cup. Well, Hossa "worked" during the regular season, but now when we needed him, and we didn't win the Cup, so I think all bets are off on that one now. Most of the teams that have cap troubles are not getting into trouble because they signed one or two superstars. The worse problem to have is when you try to retain a bunch of guys who are mid-tier players, and they're basically getting raises to be treated as Top 6 forwards or Top 4 defensemen now. If you repeat that mistake many times over, not only are you in cap trouble, but you're in cap trouble that is difficult to fix without making several moves. A year ago, I was concerned about the contract we gave Filppula, but now he has emerged, and I feel like the trend amongst fans is to favor Filppula over Hudler in terms of future importance. But as long as this team is going to be carrying the contracts of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and now Franzen (and possibly Hossa), we can't also retain all our mid-level guys. It became pretty evident in the playoffs that guys like Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, and Leino are already NHL players, but were basically log-jammed into remaining with Grand Rapids last year. And the difference between those guys and Hudler is that the younger guys are on entry-level contracts at less than $1 million, whereas you'd have to think Hudler could fetch anywhere from $2 to $4 million per, depending on the situation. Let him go.

Who started this thread, Don Cherry? How exactly was this team less tough than the 2008 version that won the Cup against largely the same Pens team? Darren Helm led the world in hits--he was running guys left and right. And we didn't get manhandled nearly to the degree that the Ducks went after us, and we won that series anyway. The whole point of the Red Wings is that we don't engage in that stuff, and that stuff does NOT determine Stanley Cup championships. If you haven't gotten that message by now (that you can win with European players, and that a team with 11 fighting majors all year can play like an elite team and come a few shots away from a Stanley Cup), then I really don't know what team you've been watching. Ask the Minnesota Wild how all of their toughness has paid off for them. In the past two seasons, they've employed goons like Derek Boogaard, Chris Simon, Todd Fedouruk and others, and not only have they not advanced past Round 1 (since 2003), but their top players routinely get run by opposing hacks all year round. Fighting does not deter cheapshot injuries any more than it wins games.

Stuart is going to Hawaii to deal with a devastating loss. This sounds like "Forgetting Sarah Marshall 2: Forgetting Stanley Cup." (Lame joke, but I loved that movie) And the TP is right, that article seems to have left out some important part of the story because I didn't see any reference by Stuart to any personal mistakes he was obsessing over. The author basically wrote a paragraph blaming Stuart for the goals and then threw a couple of quotes in there without proper context. Darren McCarty could've given the same quotes, and he didn't play a minute in the playoffs!

I think it was a bad sign of things to come when Jimmy knew he was right handed, but didn't know which stick that corresponded to. Also, I'm pretty sure the only time Jimmy got it off the ground was the one where he hit the target, and that one almost landed short of the net. Also, why the heck was Sean Avery on Jimmy Fallon? Finally, does anybody watch Jimmy Fallon?

Greetings from the biggest Red Wings fan anywhere in the State of Minnesota! It's a one-game season boys, and they have to come to our house. Pittsburgh is a worthy opponent, but I want to see us come out hard so we can rock some "Don't Stop Believing" and show the NHL what a real home-ice party looks like. Let's go Wings!

If you switch it to "absence of starting defenseman", Fischer did miss the final game of the 2002 Cup b/c of suspension. That kinda helps the pattern, I guess

No problem with Bylsma so far. I guess Therrien was kind of a ******, but I actually respected him too b/c I remember him taking the helm of that Pens team when they were TERRIBLE and calling out Gonchar and everyone else for how "soft" they were. I'll play the reverse role with some Penguins guys: Fedotenko - Talk about a nothing hockey player pretty much everywhere he went, and suddenly, he's a dependable guy you can throw out on a top line or to grind on a lower line. Reminds me of some of the Wings' grinders and secondary scorers we always brag about. Staal - Thought he regressed in his 2nd year, but watching him in the playoffs, I'm not so sure he won't be a better player than his brother (Eric) within a year or two. He's already a better two-way player, which makes him more valuable in the playoffs. Scuderi/Orpik - Gonchar and Whitney were always my picture of the Pittsburgh defense (high risk, high reward), but I think it's the emergence of these defensive guys that have made as much of a difference in this series as any supposed "evolution" of Crosby and Malkin. All the top Pens guys are playing well, but we aren't getting "lit up" by any of them. The difference has been that your squad is actually blocking shots and showing a committment to team defense.

I hear ya. I was almost having a heartattack in the 1st period when Datsyuk just missed that one-timer. That was in the FIRST PERIOD of a non-do-or-die game for us. I remember watching an NCAA championship hockey game (1999, maybe?) where I had no vested interest in either team, but it was still one of the most nervewrecking sudden deaths I can remember. Apply all that to my favorite franchise in sports and a Game 7 at home for the STANLEY CUP, and I will seriously lose about 10 years off of my life regardless of outcome.

(By the way, I respect you for coming here and talking to us, and wish you the best of luck in good sportsmanship for the rest of this series and next year, but this topic does get me fired up) There are many ways a forward can "show up" that don't appear on a scoresheet. This partially explains how Crosby and Malkin can score eleventy billion points during the Eastern Conference Finals, and then run into difficulties playing against Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who elite-level defensive players. Hossa has been a presence in this playoff both defensively and with his puck control while Datsyuk was out, even if his offensive numbers are lower than expected. The salary cap is the same for every team. While you compare Hossa's $7.4 million contract to his meager goal production and conclude that it's a dissapointment for the Wings, I doubt they'll lose much sleep over that if his presence contributed to our overall depth and a 2nd consecutive Cup.

I'm going to assume that everything you're telling me is the 100% truth. So what!?! You don't give a "two-week notice" when your EMPLOYEMENT IS ALREADY SCHEDULED TO END as of 7/1/2008!!! What would the notice be? Hossa: "Um, Mario, I'm going to be a free agent in July, just so you know." #66: "Oh crap, we didn't sign you back in April? I thought we did a sign and trade or something. No wonder we were able to get you for Angelo Esposito, two scrubs, and a pick. I thought it was weird that Atlanta had to give up Dany Heatley!" You always say good things about the club you're with, until you're not with that club any more. Otherwise, you look like a jerk, and jerks don't command the type of trust you're looking for when you're shelling out millions of dollars. Hossa did nothing wrong.

Okay, so you're not calling him a "mercenary", but you are accusing him of effectively "tampering" with the Pens' ability to sign free agents. Maybe you should have stuck with the mercenary bit. First of all, "Hossa" is not "one of ours" at this point any more than he was "one of yours" last June! Wings fans understand this because our fanbase has been making relevant deadline deals since the days when it looked like the Kansas City Penguins were a very real possibility. Your deal for Hossa wasn't fundamentally any different than our 2007 deal for Todd Bertuzzi. At the time, people around the league though that you had OVERPAID for Hossa (even though it was only three scrub prospects and a pick) because you weren't trading for Marian Hossa, you were trading for 2+ months of Marian Hossa's services. That's it. If Hossa was so dedicated to becoming a Penguin, why didn't you sign in April? You are aware that the Red Wings re-signed Zetterberg and Johan Franzen through basically 2020, right? Were you also aware that it's possible to sign players AFTER the trade deadline? Hossa was going to test the market no matter what, but he was being a good "solider" up until July 1st. That's how the game is played! And like I've said a million times, if Hossa is wearing a different color shirt after July 1 this year, not a single Wing fan should call him a traitor because this was and always has been a deal about THIS YEAR.

Look, Datsyuk is my favorite player on the Wings. I've built up that opinion watching him go from a skinny dangler in 2001 who basically disappeared after teams figured out you could just knock him off the puck to first line center, to two-way superstar and Selke winner. But even with Datsyuk completely out of the lineup, this team still took two games from a Pittsburgh team that was about as hot as a team could possibly be coming in. And they were doing it with guys called Helm and Abdelkader scoring critical goals! Datsyuk's defensive presence, if absent, would make a significant difference in the outcome of a long series, yes. But you also have Hank Zetterberg capable of doing many of the same things. And all of the secondary scoring we get comes from the style of hockey we play (the puck possession bit) and the fact that we're rolling 4 lines of NHL talent, whereas most teams in the cap/overexpanded era are basically playing AHL'ers from forwards #7-#12. Pavel is critically important to this team, but they've shown time and time again that there's no single piece (except Osgood or perhaps Lidstrom) that you could remove and decapitate this team. They're just too deep.

You're absolutely right that he would've been booed by Wings fans if the situations had been reversed, but that's not really helpful here. The point isn't that Penguins fans shouldn't be upset--they should be. The point that gets missed is WHY they should be upset: People call Hossa a "mercenary", but that term couldn't be further from the truth. Apart from the fact that Hossa willingly requested to come to Detroit but never "chose" Pittsburgh to be his team, a mercenary is a person who does things for money with no concern with principle. Clearly, Hossa has principles...he wanted to win a Cup, especially after suffering in Atlanta. And by taking less money to win said Cup, he is by no means being a mercenary. But the part that REALLY hurts Pens fans is that you're only supposed to ask off of your current team to go to a contender if you're on a team that has no chance of winning . The Pens obviously are a contender for the Cup and will continue to be for many years, but Hossa left that situation anyway because he felt like the Wings were a significantly better organization. I don't dislike the Pens, really, and I think they're good for the NHL, but it's THAT message that Hossa was sending them that is really hitting home. And it's not a message that's usually sent when you're talking about a team (the Pens) that are only two wins away from the Stanley Cup (even if Detroit only needs one).

It's not fair to compare Pavel to Yzerman in 2002, especially when we don't even know what Pavel's injury is. Other than the fact that we've seen him skate a few times, I haven't seen anything that definitively tells me it's a foot as opposed to a groin, knee, or anything else! Also, Yzerman had pretty much become a player-captain by 2002. Still a very good player, but that team was loaded with scoring, and Steve Yzerman never put up 20 goals in a season again after his 99-2000 season (amazing but true, and mostly due to injury). It's amazing to think that we got up 2 to 0 in this series led mostly by Chris Osgood, Justin Abdelkader, and Darren Helm...with that trend, I'm not surprised it's 2-2 now whatsoever.

Maybe his posture is all screwed up from spending so much time "Inside the Glass" at the Joe. I'd like to think there's a legitimate explaination for that, such as needing to face two separate cameras, but I dunno.

Guys, seriously, grow up. They got a 6th guy on the ice for 20 seconds who was a bunk defenseman way out of the play. The play did not result in us surrendering a goal or taking a penalty. It did not impact the outcome of the game. Should it have happened? Absolutely not, but where do you want to go from there. The Wings' best attribute, more than their skating, checking, or goaltending, is their professionalism. One of the most calming things for me watching a game is to see us give up what could be a backbreaking goal, and the camera pans over to Mike Babock, who is standing there cold as ice, taking a swig of water from a plastic cup. Our fan base should aspire to that same degree of professionalism that our squad demonstrates on the ice, rather than getting into pissing matches over refs being paid off or whatever.

Sorry for the detour from all the Finals talk, but a friend of mine was talking to me about how Dino Ciccarelli belongs in the Hall of Fame, but that he had heard Dino did something to piss Scotty Bowman off, which was the reason Dino was traded. Also, that Scotty's influence is the reason Dino hasn't gotten into the Hall (aside from some of the other character issues). I was a huge Dino fan in the 90's, but don't remember any of this at that time. Does anyone have any background or additional details on that? Thanks.

Right, everyone remembers that one. I don't recall Dino Ciccarelli ever scoring an own goal of any significance. In fact, I can hardly remember Dino doing anything besides standing right in front of the other team's net. Probably my fondest memory of Dino was battling in the corner with Scott Stevens in that ill-fated 1995 Finals, where Stevens was smiling because Dino was the only guy actually competing with him. Other guys (most notably Shawn Burr) were doing things like handing the Devils' stick back to them after they dropped it. I always felt bad that Dino never got a Cup with us, because he was probably the only guy in that '95 series who truly understood what it would take to win.