StormJH1

Disagree that Hossa is a "traitor", since he never willfully elected to play for Pittsburgh in the first place (and was there for all of 3 months as a rent-a-*****), but that's a whole other discussion worthy of your separate thread. Agree that Pittsburgh may also be motivated by Hossa's presence on the opponent, but not any more motivated than they already were looking to avenge last year's loss.

Everyone in the league knows what Lidstrom does, but I got sense that Crosby and Malkin (both VERY young guys) were stunned last year at the degree to which star forwards like Datsyuk and Zetterberg also worked their butts off on shadowing their every move. I would have to think that Crosby and Malkin will be better prepared for that this year. Detroit has an edge in secondary scoring (since it seems to go about 7-10 forwards deep), but guys like Guerin and Satan who didn't seem to be factors anymore suddenly work well in this system and are contributing. The funny thing about the injuries is that we came out of the Anaheim series surprisingly healthy. Then, out of nowhere, major injury after major injury started creeping up. Such is the "Second Season."

Haha, "doobie doobie doo". Gotta love it. Too bad the whole "Bud Ice" thing flamed out. I agree with virtually all of your well-reasoned take, BTP. As for the whole "feeling different" thing, the truth is that I don't feel significantly less confident this year than I did last year about my Wings squad, but only because I did not expect the Wings to roll over the Pens last year either. I was actually stunned the way they took Games 1 & 2, but after Fleury figured out the whole "coming out of the tunnel" thing and the young guys calmed down, you could see by games 5 & 6 that those were two evenly matched teams. One thing that I find interesting is that the biggest storyline from this Final has to be Marian Hossa, but in discussions of how this thing will turn out, Hossa's name is being overshadowed by Detroit's health concerns and a lot of the other players on Detroit who have been providing scoring. That's probably because Hossa has not done much scoring for us in these playoffs, but he has been a factor, and if he decides to start scoring like he was during the regular season for us, I think the 2008 Final was a perfect illustration of what a pain in the butt he can be for the opposition. Also, props for acknowledging Osgood and what he has accomplished. To say that he isn't appreciated outside of Detroit is an understatement--the guy is outright slandered by hockey fans everywhere. If all you did was check NHL.com for his regular season GAA, I could understand why. But the guy is and has always given the Wings an opportunity to win, and he's done it where a lot of other reputable goaltenders have failed (Essensa, Ranford, CuJo, Hasek in 2008). I'm still not totally sold on Fleury. He kinda reminds of Cam Ward in that he looks like one of the best goalies in the league when he's on, but then goes through these stretches where he's ordinary, or worse. Best of luck to you and your squad in the Finals. I live & die with the Red Wings, but if we have to lose to somebody, better against a town like Pittsburgh that actually appreciates hockey then something like an Anaheim, Carolina, or Tampa Bay!

And I would disagree that it's a "wrong decision." I think the decision has already been validated by the fact that the Wings are in the Cup Final and that Hossa had a monster year. If his goal is simply to sign the biggest deal with the most years and overall salary available, one thing the haters seem to ignore is that he could still sign that deal THIS offseason with the team of his choice. Who's to say that his value hasn't gone up even more than it was last year around this time? The Pittsburgh fans are jealous that he wanted off their team and went to the team that beat them in the Finals. But the haters can't have it both ways--either Hossa is a Stanley Cup cancer and you don't want him on your squad, or he's a valuable player and you think your team would have been better had he stayed with you. The entire "traitor" argument was prefaced on the idea that Hossa was valuable and he "screwed Pittsburgh" by leaving, so you can't argue "Meh, we don't need him"

This Hossa stuff is ABSURD. All people ever say is that these greedy athletes only care about winning. So why is it that a free agent takes a salary for only 1 year and for far less than he's worth b/c he wants to play on a good team...and he gets labeled a soul-less mercenary?! Hossa was TRADED to Pittsburgh. He never signed a piece of paper saying "I will play X years for Y amount of dollars in Pittsburgh". He did do that with Ottawa, only to have them ship his butt over to Atlanta. If you don't like free agency and think that all players should be commodities bought and sold by NHL clubs without the player's input, than that's your problem. But all we ever say is that we want to believe these players are genuinely interested in winning, and now they're hating on Hossa for doing just that? The NHL's annual rental market at the deadline is a big part of this problem. No other sport has this garbage to the extent the NHL does. Well, I guess you see it a little bit in baseball (Sabathia to the Brewers), but it's bad for the fans. Pittsburgh fans should have been informed enough to realize that they never "owned" Hossa any more than the Wings will after July 1 of this year...they were just "borrowing" him for a playoff run.

That was a GREAT article. Thanks for the link. Having Bure on the Wings would've been surreal, but yeah, the chemistry issues between him and Fedorov might been accelerated if they were rolling in the same circles a decade in advance. Haha.

Yeah, but that's always the case. The Cup Finals are a totally different story. Screwey things can happen in matchups with teams you hardly ever play...that 6-5 loss on VS. early this season sticks out in my head. But Philadelphia supposedly looked freakin' invincible in 1997, and they got swept. Even without Hossa, I think you have to believe that this will be a harder series than it was last year. But that isn't really saying much at all because it basically wasn't a series until the Game 5 overtime shocker. Crosby and Malkin are a year older and wiser, and you'd have to think that they're going to be watching a lot of tape of how the Wings shadowed them with guys like Zetterberg last year and make adjustments. Moreover, the Wings are just so freaking banged up right now, who even knows who we'll send out there. Also, I'm still not sold on Fleury as a big-time goaltender. He's probably one of the more athletically gifted netminders in the history of the game, and even though he wiped out coming out of the starting gate late year (literally and figuratively), the 2008 Finals were not his fault. But he's also prone to big mistakes that just come out of nowhere and deflate a team. Like the Caps game (which the Pens did end up winning anyway) where he elected to throw his goalstick at the end boards for no good reason, resulting in an empty net goal for Ovechkin. If the Pens could actually get Crosby AND Malkin firing at the same time, that would be scary. I have severe doubts we can contain Crosby for an entire series...I don't like him much, but the more you watch him, the more you realize that his hockey IQ is just through the roof. Already having nightmares about him standing at his usual spot to the right of the crease on powerplays for open net tap-ins. But all that said, I still think the Wings are a better team than the Pens, and I'll continue to believe that until I see otherwise.

Yeah, I was really surprised to see this news on Rotoworld, and it looks like it just came out. Comparing Leino and Datsyuk makes no sense b/c Leino is basically assuming Abdelkader's spot, where as Filppula would now center that top line. Filppula can play some D, but nobody's been working harder on backchecking than Datsyuk. The same could be said for Hossa, even though neither of them are scoring. Just think of how much more tolerable a scoring drought is from your elite players when: (a) you're still winning anyway; (b) said elite players work their butts off on defense.

His statement about Chris Osgood never being considered one of the "best goalies in the league" is factually correct, but it's where he goes with that fact that is so absurd. Had Osgood never won anything in the past, he could get away with that crap, but you could've said the same things about the 1998 or 2008 Osgoods, and he'd have been just as wrong. Honestly, I don't even know what an "elite" goaltender is anymore. It used to be easier because in the pre-salary cap era, the elite goalies seemed to play on teams that had some degree of success. If you think about Roy, Brodeur, or even Belfour in the 90's, those were guys that could at least get to the Cup finals, and had some success. Recently, it seems like we have to be convinced by the media that Henrik Lunquist or Roberto Luongo is the best goalie in the league. Guys like that get almost get rewarded for playing on mediocre teams, because less is expected of them A similar thing goes on with Nicklas Backstrom of the Wild. The guy is one of the Top 5 goalies in the league, no doubt, and he has the GAA AND save percentage to prove it, but people discredit him b/c they think the Wild is a defensive system that makes goalies look good (which isn't really correct anymore). Who gives a crap if you have a sucky GAA in the regular season, especially on playoff-bound team like Detroit. A lot of people thought Ward was a fluke, but here he is again dominating in the playoffs, and both him and Osgood should be recognized for doing it when it matters most.

Aside from the "Detroit is a dump" one (which doesn't really bother us), the one about "The Red Wings are the Yankees of hockey" really gets under my skin. If a knowledgable NHL fan (or strong fan of another team) doesn't like us b/c we win all the time, I can handle that. But it's when you get those people who don't care about the NHL (or at least haven't since the lockout) who tell us that we buy all our players, and you almost have to explain to these people (a) there is a Salary Cap; (b) Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and much of our other key guys are all homegrown and drafted in VERY low rounds; © the Yankees WISH they had a business model where they're able to bring in (or cultivate) quality team players still in their prime. I live in Minnesota now, and I quickly realized that being knowledgable about hockey is one thing, but that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the NHL well enough to criticize a team like the Wings. The NHL didn't exist here from 1993-2000, so you live in this bizarre alternate reality where hockey itself is very important and popular, but the NHL itself has almost a cult-like following.

Petr Nedved was decent, but yeah, agreed.

Fairness in Conversation Act: Ozzie has only "won" 2 Stanley Cups as far as the Hall of Fame would be concerned...1997 belonged to Vernon. Though it certainly helps his cause that he basically relegated Dominik Hasek to the BENCH in 2008 to get his second Cup, even if Dom was significantly older at that point. To say that he "won" the 1997 Cup is kinda like saying Jamie Pushor won a Cup, or any of the backups for Grant Fuhr when the Oilers were winning in the 80's. But I do think he's a Hall of Famer. Critics will say that he's a product of the system, but that same "system" failed to win Cups with other well-established goaltenders. Also, if you look at the 2003-04 season with the Blues (plus the 1st Islanders season), he was actually a pretty solid goaltender for some pretty mediocre teams. But irrespective of all that, it's kinda like the Kurt Warner effect. He had moderate Hall credentials up to the point where everyone said he was washed up. But after he came back from that and restored his former glory, you put it altogehter and it's a pretty convincing case to enshrine him in Toronto. Plus, the Hockey Hall of Fame is arguably the least selective of all the Hall of Fames anyway.

I'm posting in this thread just because I don't want this point to be taken for granted. It was BY NO MEANS a foregone conclusion that we would get good, or even passable, goaltending this postseason. Our regular season goaltending was TERRIBLE. Even if he's done it before, what Osgood is doing this playoff run is nothing short of amazing. To look at old highlights from 1993-94 (the loss to San Jose) and to think that was about 15 years ago, and this is the SAME GUY still leading us to the Playoffs in 2009 is unfathomable. And if you think about all of the "replacements", like Vernon, Hasek, Essensa, Ranford, Joesph, etc. that we've used in the meantime, and how many times the fairweather fans in this town pissed all over him (and ran him out of town in 2001), and how different today's game is than the game in 1993, it's even more remarkable that he's back and better than ever.

I don't think you're remembering the same Kris Draper I am: http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1428 I think the comparison is dead-on. Draper only topped 15 goals ONCE in his career, and that wasn't until 2003-04 until he'd already won 3 Cups. Also, that was one time in Draper's career where he was beginning to be used as something more than a Grind Liner, and even played some LW on the 2nd line. Sure, Draper might have been able to score 20 goals if he signed for $3 million on the Islanders or some garbage team like that. But as long as Helm is a Wing, he's probably not going to be a Top 6 forward either. I think you'd be stunned how many players in the NHL could back themselves into a 20-goal season if they got decent playing time for a full-season (or just a little bit of power play time). Draper was never a dangler either--he created his own opportunities with speed and hustle, and it was the hungry young players as much as the top line guys that have really brought this franchise back to life in the playoffs the past few years.

Someone else said it best in one of the other threads: We practically didn't even show up for Game 3 or Game 6 and very easily could have still won either of those games. Home ice advantage will be HUGE for this game, particularly after the Ducks just got spanked at the Joe in Game 5 (even worse than the score indicated, IMO). I don't care about what seed they are because NHL seeding is B.S. Anaheim was scarier to me than any team in the West, including San Jose, and here we are with a chance to take them down in a single game at home. Ozzie has been playing great, Franzen has continued to amaze, and if even one of our 3 superstar forwards puts a puck in the net, I love our chances. We're also long overdue for a goal from the point. It doesn't get any better than this, and there's no other club in the NHL I'd rather have as a fan in this situation than ours. Let's go Wings!

"Next Captain" and "Best Forward" are two completely different conversations. People said for years that Martin Lapointe would be the next captain of the Red Wings, and he was never even close to the "best player".

And, as a Detroit fan, I would agree with you that there is not any particular rivalry between Detroit and San Jose. The only negative memory I have of San Jose is the early round exit over 15 years ago when Osgood turned over the puck (amazing that Ozzie has played that long, isn't it?). I disagree that you need to have fighting to have a great rivalry. The Colorado rivalry is popularly remembered for the fights, but the rivalry remained relevant because the teams kept meeting up in the playoffs, and there were plenty of memorable moments (like Roy's 2002 Statute of Liberty--the last hurrah) that have nothing to do with fighting. In the "new NHL", though, a team like Pittsburgh or New Jersey could never be a rival b/c you might see them 2 times all season. I have animosity towards Pittsburgh when I see them play, but really the odds of two teams getting all the way through their respective conferences several times in a period of a few years isn't likely to happen. Even if Pittsburgh and Detroit were to meet again in this year's final, that "rivalry" wouldn't have any legs because there simply wouldn't be any opportunities to play them after that. By contrast, if you have two quasi dynastic teams in the same conference (like Detroit and Colorado), it's almost inevitable that they'll play each other in almost every playoff season.

This is an excellent point about the salary cap and what was going on in hockey at the time. I had a guy on my hockey team here in Minnesota who started going off on me about how he HATES the Red Wings because they're the "Yankees of hockey". Needless to say, the guy clearly hasn't paid attention to the NHL post-lockout, and I proceeded to lay into him for several minutes in front of the rest of my team. But that perception still remains. Sometimes, I wonder if the NHL will ever seem as "big" as it did to me in the late 1990's. It's almost impossible for a Detroit fan to evaluate the state of hockey objectively because of the euphoria of Cup wins in 1997 and 1998. But it did seem like there was something to be said for super teams being put together like Detroit and Colorado and seeing what felt like nearly a dozen future Hall of Famers playing in their prime across both teams. I try to explain to people who aren't from Detroit how big that rivalry was and how big the NHL was to Detroit fans at the time, and they can't even begin to comprehend it. Especially here in Minnesota where the NHL didn't even exist from 1993 to 2000. To me, I don't think anything will ever surpass the Colorado/Detroit Rivalry from 1995 to 2002 in our lifetime. I say not just because of the Blood Bath, not just because of Roy, Lemieux, and all of the combined talent of those games, but because it was the perfect storm of things coming together. Like Patrick Roy getting traded to Colorado BECAUSE the Wings beat the Canadiens 12-2 and his coach refused to take him out of the game. Like the disappointment of getting creamed in the '95 Finals, multiplied by losing to Colorado in '96. Watching a city like Denver get a cup in their first year, while the Wings had waited for over 40 years. But it was also a complex rivalry in that you did respect the talent on Colorado, and the anger I had for Lemieux, Foote, Roy, and some of their goons did not extend towards Sakic and some of the other players, including Forsberg. And while we hated the Denver fans b/c of their team and their obnoxiousness, there was an implicit respect for an NHL city west of the Mississippi that actually CARED about this sport and this rivalry. Without Colorado in the way, Detroit may have accomplished even more than it did, but I would argue that it would've meant much, much less.

The NHL should be giving away its product in as many places as possible. Don't just plaster "Thank You Fans!" behind the blue line for a season, do something to actually allow us to watch your game, since you decided to reject ESPN's lowball offer! I have Comcast in Minnesota, I paid for a premium tier AND a sports tier (I'm pretty sure) and neither of those gets me NHL Network or Center Ice. I do have MLB Network, which I'm coming to appreciate more and more. I don't think they show MLB games on there, but at least I can get news and live updates on baseball, if I so desire. So basically, I think I'm S.O.L. for Game 5. There's a bar with a satellite TV near my house, I think I'll be going there and hoping they can hook me up.

I dunno, ready or not, if the guy is only going to replace Chelios' 6 minutes of playing time, I'm not sure how he could do much more harm than Chelios did with his 6 minutes in Game 3. I don't think Brett Lebda is a particularly good defensive player, but he at least has the raw speed to react to unexpected things that happen on the ice. Kindl would have to be an improvement, as would Meech. Also, the Ericsson/Kindl comparison doesn't work for a lot of reasons. If I understand correctly, Ericsson is somewhat of an anamoly in that he was a 9th round draft pick (yes, even lower than Pavel), and kept moving back and forth between forward and defense. The Wings organization basically had to make him a defenseman. There are plenty of serviceable 6th defensemen in the league that are 22 or younger. Chelios is no longer "serviceable."

Are there seriously people out there who think the NHL bends the rules for the Red Wings to win? Seriously? Have you looked at our roster? We have like 9 Swedish players. Our best player is a quiet Russian dude who says things like "dangle dangle". This is the best franchise of the past 20 years in the NHL, and we even have problems marketing it within our own city! Why would the league give us a handout? Just because the refereeing is atrocious doesn't mean it's necessarily biased one way or the other. Reffing a Ducks game is like trying to judge fouls on Shaquille O'Neal, they play so much differently than everyone else that nobody knows how to address it. If you called a Ducks game, any Ducks game 100% by the book, they could never win. Seriously, with all of the cheap shots during play and after the whistle, they'd have a perpetual man in the box. But when you get in these playoff series, refs don't want to decide games with calls, so they ignore blatant things the aggressive team (Ducks) does, while balancing things with makeup calls for marginal infractions on the more passive team (Wings).

This is absurd to me for two reasons: (1) Anybody watching that video can clearly see that Wisneiwski was messed up by the initial shot to the ribs. He fell to one knee and essentially stopped playing even though the puck was cycling in his zone at a critical time. (2) It's not like there isn't video of this...we have video from multiple replays, and nobody can even agree on what happened or how Holmstrom might have contributed to it. I struggle with the argument that this was a clearly malicious (and some are arguing suspendable offense) when we're looking right at it on tape and you can see he had the prior injury. Maybe if he had a concussion and Holmstrom elbowed him in the face, that would make sense. But the supposed eggregious act doesn't even match the symptoms here. A puck strike to the chest DOES.

The officiating has been atrocious in so many ways, but unless Tim Donaghy became an NHL ref while I wasn't looking, even a series of bad calls (or non-calls) in one Game 3 really shouldn't be blamed for the end result of a series. What's most troubling to me is the lack of consistency in the bad officiating. It's not like the crews are erring only one direction (i.e. swallowing the whistles). There have been some horrible non-calls (like the 2nd goal with Niedermayer interfering), as well as some over-activity on the part of the refs (blowing the play dead without even moving to try and see if the puck was on the goalline; the penalty in Game 2 where Mike Brown basically fell down and touched his nose, and our guy was thrown in the box when there was no contact whatsoever). Swallowing the whistle would inherently favor the Ducks, since they will do anything and everything to give themselves an advantage, but at least we'd be on notice that the rules no longer apply. I thought the commentator's point about the Niedermayer interference play was great--the problem isn't just that they failed to protect the goaltender, but the rules also inhibit the defenders from trying to protect the goalie as well, since they'll call obstruction if you so much as touch a guy in front of the net. The problem is multiplied with Osgood b/c he's like 5'9" in real life, and he HAS to come way out of the crease on angles. You're less likely to get the benefit of those calls the more you stray from the cage.

I hope that a lot of people share your sentiment, whether this year turns out to be a 2nd round exit or a Cup repeat. We all knew what this was when he signed. Holland pulled off something that nobody thought would've been possible, and he's ALREADY been successful in locking up Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen to long term deals. That alone is worthy of praise. If #81 leaves after this season, not a single fan should be angry at him or the organization, given the circumstances. And beyond his statistical contributions, having Hossa on this team refocuses the other guys in the way that the 2002 Wings played harder for Robataille and Duschene-type guys (and Datsyuk, as well) who hadn't won a Cup up to that point. LETS GO WINGS!

What a treat it is to be a Red Wings fan. I swear that I do my best to appreciate every minute of the good times like this because you know it can't last forever (but with Ken Holland, anything is possible). How many teams go through a magical Cup run like the Wings did and still go out and grab the most valuable free agent on the market a month later? And in a Cap era? Hossa's been a terrific fit, and when you go through stretches (as you always will) where guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are struggling in the regular season, he seemed like the best player on the ice. I never realized from his time in Ottawa and Atlanta how great of a 2-way player he is also, though if the Wings wanted him, I shouldn't be surprised.