Nev

So many reasons, but one not mentioned so far is how easily opponents gain our zone on the PP. You watch the really good PK teams and it all starts with stopping the opponents from getting control in your own zone. We seem content to let them skate up the ice and let them set up their PP nice and easy. From there its all the other reasons mentioned - (lack of) hustle, shot blocking, rebound control or clearing opposing forwards from round our net. And Lidstrom being nearly 40. I know they weren't all PP goals, but from memory 5 of the 6 goals last night were off rebounds - and its not just d-men not clearing the crease, Williams not coasting back from the neutral zone would help.

This isn't about line combos, its about getting back the fire that fuelled us into the unstoppable machine of 2007-2008. Right now, I think the only thing thing that will fix this is a lackluster regular season and being bounced out of the playoffs early doors. It was successive playoff failures that drove the players to listen to Babcock and buy into his system. And as others have said, a start would be our best players being our best players. Right now our best player is, Filpulla? Datsyuk has just 2 assists in his last 8 regular season games.

I agree that this is the final nail in the coffin of the 08-09 defensive laxity - or it is if we want to make the playoffs, let alone win the Division Title that we have come to believe is ours by right. No way can we win games playing our half-assed 20 minute efforts any more. It also gives several players - specifically Filpulla, Leino, Helm and Abdelkader a real opportunity to play and increase their roles. But Mike Babcock, please for the love of God, don't play Flip on Datsyuks wing. I can't think of a player on our roster less suited to play there.

Just saw this on - of all places - Sky Sports News. Shocked is an understatement. Like others I am dubious that he will be back after 4 months. You can't rush knee injuries. Well, you can, but it normally ****s you up forever more. So now we're missing Franzen, Lilja, Conklin, Hossa, Hudler, Samuelson and Kopecky from last seasons roster

This so-called anti-fighting poster just wants to add this quote This has been the basis of this whole ridiculous, rumbling, boring, annoying argument. Do we want a player who can fight, a Darren McCarty or Martin Lapointe? Or do we want a fighter who can't play, a Brad Norton or Aaron Downey? If you want the former, then you're labelled by the latter as "anti-enforcer", and a whole load of straw-men and tenuous arguments are invented to incessantly keep the argument ongoing. Alas, May can play 80 games this season and every win with him in the line-up will be constantly crowed over by certain members, and every loss without him in the line-up will be constantly raked over the coals by the same members.

Yes and no. Whilst Gretzky was in Edmonton and being paid a (comparitive) pittance, he acted as an unofficial salary cap. Every GM in the league could tell a player looking for a big contract "What, you think you're worth more than Wayne Gretzky?" That ended when he went to LA, and ultimately, by a long and tortuous route, ended in the last lockout.

OMG! Our #7 and #8 Defencemen aren't NHL caliber!!! OMG!! Seriously, get some perspective. If/When Lilja gets back, one of Meech/Lebda will be traded/waived and the other will be a healthy scratch. There is a reason why they are 7 and 8 on the depth chart. Welcome to the world of having a talented team in the cap era. And for the record, and just to annoy certain people, Lebda has had 2 strong post-seasons on the bounce.

I voted "Goaltending" because that was the biggest factor in letting in 8 goals in 2 games. BUT The reason we got outplayed for most of those 2 games was because we got outworked and more importantly outmuscled behind our net. We really could've done with Lilja this weekend, but even so, I think I would have mixed up the D pairings so that our biggest, strongest player wasn't on the 3rd unit.

10 minutes of utter domination, 50 minutes of s***e. I don't know if I can stand another season of bad defence, goaltending and PKing, and how its all because we don't have any enforcers. Credit to the Blues, they were getting pwned in both games and they came back and put on a clinic.

ESPN America is a sports channel in Europe - used to be NASN before ESPN bought them out.

How the frack have we not scored on the PP yet? Incessant pressure. They keep going for the same move though - passing it to the man in close on the short side who tries to stuff it in. They must think thats a weakness of Coklin

Yep me too....and that goal will be waved off

Wow, just like last year, only turned up for half the game. Sadly - or should that be fortunately? - no Hossa/Sammy/Huds to help bail out our shoddy goaltending and defence. A few more losses like that and they might learn they can't get away with 30 minute performances any more. Credit to the Blues, they played real well after going 3-1 down, and behind out net they absolutely murdered us with their work and size.

I've just seen a #29 in red on the ice....I don't think I've heard Williams name called the entire game

Hello 2008-2009. Defense and Osgood both brutal. If only we had an enforcer, Osgood would be able to control a rebound. Thank goodness for the ignore list.

Yeah, he tried to deke one of their d-men in their zone, but he had no speed and their player did a good job of standing up and putting Datsyuk on his ass. Kudos to him, it doesn't happen very often. But Dats is fine, came back later and took Jackman to school, drawing a penalty (he could have been called for tripping, high-sticking and holding in a 5 second span of Datsyukian awesomeness).

Great first period...Mason really kept them in it. Bertuzzi looked really good out there, hanging onto the puck and shooting whenever possible (quickest route to being a Babcock favourite) Filpulla - Flip I love man, but you gotta learn to stop passing up the shot and dishing it off EVERY TIME Datsyuk - How I have missed your sweet, sweet stick handling and magical puck control. Oh and Maltby on course for a 492 point season

Interesting debate over whether or not he is an all-star. No major individual awards, no cups., but was an 9 time all star. An Olympic Gold and 3 World Championships, but the latter is viewed in N America (quite rightly IMO) as a 2nd tier tournament. However he played for the Leafs and given their media power-base, that may put him over the top. He's a certainty to have his number retired by Toronto, but for me its a toss of the coin if he gets in the HOF. The comparison to Lindros is interesting. For a period of several years Lindros was THE dominant player in the NHL, something Sundin never was, but Sundin had a much longer career giving him superior totals.

Nah, first season after the lockout with many of the players having done nothing for 12 months, coupled with the new rules where players had to actually skate for the first time in a decade, I remember there was an epidemic of groin injuries around the league.

I should add, I loved the Babcock quote about when Anaheim lost to NJ, they had a Western Conference champs banner raising ceremony the next season.......if Detroit were to do that everyone - ownership, coaches, players and fans - would be flat out embaressed. Also don't forget that this is probly Homer, Maltby and possibly Lidstroms last kick at the can. Those guys know the sands of time are ebbing away...

The Brad May of 4 years ago, I would like, and I would have liked him 4 years ago as well. The 38 year old Brad May.....not so sure - is he really that much of an upgrade over Downey? (as a skater/player, not as a fighter). Isn't that what all the pro/anti enforcer arguments have boiled down to? Can we afford a player on the roster whose only skill is to be able to fight and cannot keep up as a skater? Still, if he we can get him for a 2-way deal, its not a bad situation at all. If he turns out to be a pylon with fists he can go to GR at no cost to the Wings.

Please, stop acting so innocent and all "what me?" This thread wasn't about Franzen, it was about Franzens goal scoring. About whether he would score 40 or was a 1st round fantasy pick or not. YOU turned it into a thread about toughness/being soft etc when you said, completely out of the blue, apropos of nothing, in post number 5 "Hopefully he'll stop acting like a ***** also. No more dives and wannabee scrums" As for "that happens in every thread" it happens because you and a couple of like-minded individuals make it happen in every thread! We know how you feel about the Wings, you tell us several times a thread. We get it. No need to ruin the forum over it.

FFS, is it all possible anymore to have a thread on LGW that doesn't turn into a "toughness" slanging match within 4.72 posts? This is all getting really rather tedious. For the record I'm much more concerned about Franzen's questionable work ethic than shying away from post-whistle intimidation. If he stops coasting through games and taking lazy 50 foot wrist shoots I'd be much happier than if he was to try and turn himself in Brendan Shanahan. But thats the point- certain folks here won't be happy (and won't stop posting about it) till his brain explodes within his skull as he gets pounded to the ice by an opponent who has the fighting skills and mindset that he doesn't

Best post Eva has made since I've been on here I'd like to think this is sarcasm, but given your avatar and posting history... Burke has done Jack in Toronto so far. All he's done is made a few big moves and signed a few tough guys to make the fight fans here all moist. Lets wait and see 1) if they become a legit contender again 2) If they actually win something. If they win a cup or 2, have the team destroyed by the cap and by age and then builds *another* team which is an annual contender and wins a cup or 2, then and only then can we talk about Burke being better than Holland. And all that is assuming that Detroit fall from their pedestal in the mean time.

Wonder if Babs will start the game with a Swedish 5 like the old Russian 5? Franzen-Zetterberg-Holmstrom Lidstrom - Kronwall He's normally a pretty classy guy for this kind of thing. He dressed 7 defenceman so Chelios and Lebda could play in the Winter Classic and even started Chelios. He also re-united the Grind Line and started the game with them when McCarty made his comeback.