Frozen-Man

Lidstrom has never been an "invisible" force - he has however, often been a near invincible one and even this year as close to invincible as anyone else (even having testicular surgery). Rafi is not incredible defensively but he is far from abysmal. I think it depends upon how you mean it - if you are talking about next year or the one after that I would definitely take Lids and Rafi, if however, you are talking about the next 5-7 years I think you might be correct that they younger guys will have a longer lasting (and thus potentially better) impact on their team.

They talked about him farther down in the article, the posted part was just a snippet. Here is what they said about Downey: Not really much info except they make it sound like he has already been offered a contract and just has to decide whether or not to take it.

Well, if we are getting technical the salary cap didn't go down at all revenues were down however the inflator was triggered before the cap is set so the cap was never technically down just revenues were.

How great would it be to see Domi and Probert get mad at each other about the scores of their routines and the fight in the middle of the show.

Looks like the new rumor/news is that the Wings have offered Hossa a final offer - "Despite Red Wings GM Ken Holland's protestations to the contrary, Sports Illustrated's Jim Kelley lends credence to Bruce Garrioch's report that the Red Wings have made their final offer to Marian Hossa" Who knows if any of it is true.

That is correct according to Kukla quoting a NY Post's Larry Brooks:

Can you ever not say something negative about the Wings? You bash them even when you have to stretch to make it relevant to the topic.

QFT - great post! There is no need for a new thread everyone EXCEPT Micah has congratulated him and praised him for his career and what he has done for this team, and considering most people's opinion of Micah it is actually praise to Cheli that he has bashed him so much. It would concern me more (based upon Micah's warped view) if Micah had good stuff to say about him. He rarely has good stuff to say about the Wing's players, coaches, or management so I expect nothing less from him regarding Cheli. Chalk it up to his dumb/immature/uninformed views like everyone else does.

Funny, go back and read this thread EVERYBODY took it the same way I did. Your pathetic attempts to worm your way out of previous statements once again did not work, but nice attempt to change the subject back to personal imaginary statements rather than argue your point. I did however, notice that you once again took the opportunity to state that you are very smart (I guess you have to keep telling everybody since there is no way there to discern that fact from your posts . . . but at least you have stopped bragging, for a moment at least, about how rich you are and how girls want you . . . wait you had to bring up about how a girl in 9th grade wanted you ) but I'm pretty sure that using the term "wicked smart" in the first indicator that you in fact are not.

Typical, rather than actually back up the bull crap you post you try to turn it into something personal and use homoerotic aspersions to try to take away from the stupid comments that you were called to task on. I notice that you don't actually defend the stupid comment that Cheli "learned to suck" in Detroit. I give actual evidence and statistics that he obviously didn't suck in Detroit. You then act as if Cheli learned to suck the last couple of years rather than understanding the obvious fact that he is 47 rather than 37 when he came here a decade ago. Wow who would have thought a 47 year old guy wouldn't be as good as a 37 year old guy, rather than "learning to suck" as you accused him of doing he actually succumbed to the horrible reality of natural human aging. You say he learned to suck in Detroit and that you hope people don't remember his years here. That is just dumb and yeah a form of bashing the Wings with your inability to see the reality if it means something good about the Wings. Obviously the guy was not as good in the twilight years of his career as he was in his prime. That is true of every play . . . that's why they call it their "prime" . . . and yet he was still amazing for most of his career here, but only you can turn that into a problem with the Wings because because he was great in Montreal, great in Chicago, and "learned to suck" in Detroit. Oh and by the way it is not that I give a rip about you, I have this strange inability about seeing people spew stupid and untrue comments without correcting the untruth. Simple solution, stop making stupid and untrue comments and I guarantee that I won't be responding to you at all. Other than to correct your dumb comments I have never read anything you posted worth commenting on.

Those stats don't tell it all because of PP time for Huds and PK time for Flip. Additionally, Flip has gotten the hard job of being a shutdown center and playing that defensive role which has an impact on his offense. Not exactly, not if Flip's contract is considered overpaid now. Look at Jeff Finger's contract. The team overpaid and most know it so the fact that a specific player makes a certain amount doesn't necessarily dictate that that is the market price. Additionally, you have to look at the current economic climate as well. When Flip signed his contract the economy was rosy, the cap had been going up dramatically each year since its implementation and there was no signs that the trend would not continue. Now however, it looks like the cap will stay roughly flat and likely go down next year. That has the natural effect of suppressing market prices. The fact of the matter is Flip came up for contract renewal at a great time and Huds is up for one at a lousy time. The fact that Huds may be as good as Val doesn't change the fact that other circumstances have transpired that suppress the amount that teams are willing to spend.

You never miss a chance to bash the Red Wings. Do you have any idea what you are talking about or do you just spout off any drivel, whether true or not, that disparages the Red Wings. Cheli put up his best plus minus of his career (and the second best in the NHL that year) the first full year he played with Detroit. He again captained the USA hockey team and lead them to a silver medal (this was during 2002 which was during his third year with the Wings). He was the runner up to Lids for the Norris in 01-02, amazingly rare and proves how great he was that year as he was runner up to his own teammate (oh yeah he also was a +40 that year which was an NHL best). In the '02 post season he was a playoff best +15, he lead all defensemen with 13 playoff assists (fourth among all players), second in playoff points by a defenseman (behind Lids), first in shorthanded assists and points, and 12th overall in scoring. There is no doubt that he has declined as he got older but that has mostly been the last few years, he has had less responsibility and ice time and has been a good failsafe for the team. To suggest that he "learned to suck" in Detroit or that he should not be remembered for what he did as a Wings player is stupid and once again shows your hatred for this team.

I agree with you on our biggest hurdle being fatigue, beat up, and energy but I don't think comparing it to last year with Drake last year verses Hossa this year really covers it. I think that the main difference is that last year it was Nashville Colorado Dallas and this year it was Colombus Anaheim Chicago I really think that while the Ducks didn't win the Cup this year they played a huge part in the Pens winning the Cup. Had we had a second round series like we had last year in the Avs I don't think we would even be having this discussion we would be getting ready for another parade. We beat probably the "toughest" team in the playoffs in Anaheim but there is no way that doesn't take its toll on a team. We had very key guys hurt for extended stretches. Lils was out well before the playoffs. Lids got hurt so bad he couldn't play which is so rare it has never happened in the playoffs before. Our Hart candidate was out the first 3 games of the finals (due to getting hit in the foot with a shot which has nothing to do with getting beaten up it could have happened to anyone). Raffy gets hurt. Drapes gets hurt. Kopy gets hurt in a fight which is the only one that really was the result of enforcer type play. It was just an injury riddled post season, backed up by the fact that we had a hard road through Anaheim (and Chicago was no picnic even though we beat them in 5) and got hosed by not getting the break that a team earns after dispatching their opponent in 5 games. Add to that the fact that the Wings won the Cup last year and the Pens lost which like it or not is going to naturally make the Pens hungrier (and with an easier road to the finals and an extra day of rest) and that is the difference this year.

GO WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!

QFT If Cosby wanted to win so bad and he is so wonderful why has he been held pointless in 4 out of 6 games, pointless in every road game in the finals, has one goal in the finals (which by the way is 1 less than Abdelkader who has played half as many games and was brought up from the AHL), has only 3 points the entire series (one more than Dats who has only played 2 games and Z, who has shut Crosby down has doubled Crosy's point production with 6), Crosby is a -3 for the series and only had one + game, and even the commentators are saying he has taken himself out of any consideration for the Conn Smythe trophy. It is pathetic that you are dumb enough to think no one wants it more than Crosby.

I agree with you about the what if and lucky bounces and chances, however, I wish you would tell that to bewarethepenguin as he spent 4-5 pages whining about it after the first two games and making the same arguments that you are rejecting here.

I was going to post on how stupid of a comment the bold part was but xtrememachine 1 said it perfectly: You can make a good argument that the reffing has been bad for both teams, but the stupid play that resulted in all the game 5 penalties was obvious and makes any argument or comment that you make after it suspect.

The refs will not be what cost the Wings the series if they lose, it will be lack of effort/energy/whatever you want to call it for long stretches of certain games. I do however have a problems with the Ericsson call, not that it was called but that the dozens on Gill have not been, I don't think you applaud the reffs for getting a call right whenever they decide that the exact same play is not going to be called as a penalty at another time, it is not the call or non-call but the lack of consistancy that irks me.

Way to prove them all wrong by not posting in this thread . . . . . . . . . wait . . . . . . . . . . nevermind its too late. Not even close Duck Guy is always ineligible and rational and I have never seen him troll, bait, or flame. About the subject at hand it really is amazing that it comes down to the exact same scenario as last year Wings v. Pens, game 6 Wings up 3-2 in Pit, with Detroit having the chance to win the Cup. Amazing that it has come down to this again and how surreal for Hossa to be on the opposite side when almost every thing else is so similar. Here is hoping for Hossa to get a happy outcome this time around.

That is just a silly argument and your two statements contradict each other. If Hossa was so sure that he wanted to stay in Pitt why did he want to "look one more time to confirm?" Not to mention that your made up statement "look one more time to confirm" makes no sense either. It couldn't have been one MORE time because he said it before free agency started and no other team was allowed to negotiate with him yet. If anything it meant I like your offer but I am going to get a look FOR THE FIRST TIME and see if I have any better options. Even the Pens GM is not stupid enough to have believed that. If Pitt was his first choice no matter what there would be no reason to see what his options were in free agency. I believe that had the Wings not been able to work Hossa in he would have signed with Pitt but he didn't want to commit to them until he had looked at his other options and the Pens GM KNEW THAT back on the 22nd of June when Hossa wouldn't commit but rather informed them he wanted to look at his options - basically telling them that he was going to shop around and consider his options and if there was a better one he would take it. Why would he say I want to see what my options are if he had no intention to consider other options - that is just stupid and totally unbelievable.

Sadly, not every Wings "fan" (I use that term loosely here) has the same great feelings about our amazing captain. Here are a few of Micah's choice opinions about Lidstrom, sad really: Suck to be so spoiled of a fan that you can't appriciate the amazing talent and leadership that Lidstrom provides.

Yeah, I know what you mean but the thing to me is that they had the exclusive rights to negotiate with him up until July 1st. Assuming that they don't negotiate during the playoffs they had from the time that the playoffs ended until July 1st to get a commitment out of him and there should have been nothing to discuss on July 1st. For them they had almost a month to try to hammer out a deal, if they had one in place there is no reason to not sign it first thing in the morning July 1st, if they did not have an agreement in place after almost a month (and with full knowledge that he would be able to sign or explore offers elsewhere - which is really the only reason for him to have not signed as soon as July 1st rolled around unless they thought he was just doing it for leverage in which case they should have known he might leave). I just don't get how there is that much of a problem.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If you take Feds at his absolute best he was unreal, I have rarely seen anyone play as well as he could both offensively and defensively. That being said I think Pav will maintain his high level of play for a longer amout of time giving him the edge in longevity. However, if you are talking about just one or two seasons, as much as I love Pav, I have to go with Fedorov.

It's not like Hossa dragged them along for months, or even weeks, or even one week, free agency STARTED July 1st and Hossa SIGNED with Detroit July 2nd.

I fully agree with you but some guys like Micah think that Lids is horrible captain and has no heart ect. because you never visibly see his emotion.