Frozen-Man

My point is he only fights and as such is doesn't provide much hockey benefit to his team. Holmstrom signed up to play hockey not to get punched in the face by a guy 6" bigger than he is. And again what happens if when fighting a guy vastly oversized he gets injured like Lilly did. You just said it yourself they aren't scared they just aren't stupid either and fighting a guy 9" taller than you are and who is a monster in size compared to those two is just stupid they are far to valuable to lose just because you want to get your jollies seeing a fight. I'm not sure I've ever heard Pronger described that way and not too many who would agree with you there. Here is a run down of your classy player (and again don't think that your constant gushing and praise for anyone not on this Red Wings roster and constant bad mouthing of those on it has gone unnoticed): Chris Pronger’s career suspensions and victims: June 3, 2007: with Anaheim — one playoff game, blow to the head (Ottawa’s Dean McAmmond). May 15, 2007: with Anaheim — one playoff game, blow to the head (Detroit’s Tomas Holmstrom). March 14, 2004: with St. Louis — one game, kicking (Calgary’s Ville Nieminen) April 3, 2002: with St. Louis — two games, cross-check (Dallas’s Brenden Morrow). Oct. 11, 2000: with St. Louis — one game, leaving bench for altercation (Los Angeles’s Kelly Buchberger). Dec. 17, 1998: with St. Louis — four games, high stick (Phoenix’s Jeremy Roenick). Oct. 29, 1995: with St. Louis — four games, slashing (Washington’s Pat Peake) He is also one of only 3 players ever to be suspended twice in one playoff year (along with, according to your standards, the classy Claude Lemieux). He is also one of only 3 players to ever be suspended during the Stanley Cup Finals. Yeah he is a really classy guy - good to know what your standards are and what you uphold as classy. I think it's good that Homer has enough intelligence to make smart decisions. Homer is not a fighter and never has been. He is much more likely to get hurt by Pronger than Lils was by Weber. I seem to remember you using Lils getting hurt as justification for needing Downey on the team because guys like that should have to be fighting. For example when you said this: Quite the double standard.

I think it is because he is a hockey player not an MMA athlete. Some guys are hockey players (a la Dats), some guys are fighters (a la Downey), some guys do both (a la Shanny). I always hear you bad mouth hockey players, like Homer, because they don't fight but I don't hear you bad mouth fighters, Like Downey, because he can't play hockey. So if Pronger wanted to go with Hudler or Flip or Dats are they selfish to not drop the gloves with him either. Downey is not any more brave than any of those just HE JUST HAS NO OTHER SKILL, if Downey doesn't drop the gloves he doesn't play because he has no other use. Homer goes to the net and takes a beating every night that is true bravery and actually playing hockey. Sometimes it not selfish or cowardice its not stupid. You don't care about the reason or the strategy of fighting you just want fighting for fighting sake and that is selfish because it has nothing to do with the team's success.

Oh yeah here is another guy on the Wings Micah would like to bad mouth. Running total = the only guy in the organization that Micah has not bad mouthed is Al Sobotka (but give him time). Homer is a great asset to this team and takes more of a beating than just about any player in the league. Plus you were whining about Lilly having to fight when he got hurt fighting Weber and he's not known for KO-ing guys either, but you still said he shouldn't have been having to fight him. Homer is not on this team to fight, he is on this team to plant in front of the net and screen/deflect shots - and he is the best in the league at it. Since all you care about is fighting go watch the UFC.

Translation: I hate every player on the Detroit Red Wings - none of them are tough enough. Oh yeah but I love the Wings.

You are probably the only person that I have ever heard call Holmstrom selfish, if only he was as good as Downey.

Yeah, I thought based upon the title that it was going to be Yzerman. It will be a sad day for me (although if it ever comes I will understand) if he is ever affiliated with another organization.

Why were you happy with the boxscore? The Griffs lost again 2-1.

Smithers originally posted the video on the first page but here it is again the hit is about 2:20 into the video. http://www.moosehockey.com/moosetv.php?video=374

So you're praising a guy for actions that you know nothing about, just your blind man-lust for Downey. Maybe you should watch the play (it was posted in this thread) so you could have some clue what you are talking about before you post this stuff then:

Your numbers were not more correct because you cherry picked and compared the total number of penalties that Lids had to a guy that plays about 16% of the time he does.I put the Wings short handed less times last year than Lids did too but that is not really comparable either. Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice. Had Downey played as many minutes as Lidstrom he would have been on pace for more than 2.5 minor penalties a game. The guy had almost NO ice time, only played 56 games and was still 6th on the team in minor penalties. I mean total Downey only played 256 minutes last year while Lidstrom had 2,030 minutes yet you brag that Downey put his team short handed less than Lidstrom (which I'm still not sure is true Lids had 20 minors and Downey had 23). Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 that he played which was by far the absolute worst on the team - no one was even close to that pace. Edit* fixed grammar and accuracy.

The result of the Bertuzzi hit was worse than the Downey hit but no worse in terms of what was done. I sencereley doubt that Bert intended Moore to be hurt like he was. The Downey his was not "straight-up, mano y mano" it was cheap and pathetic. In fact you even said that if Downey's hit What Bertuzzi did was exactly what you advocate for all the time, the result was just bad so you act as if it is some way different than the other cheap pathetic cheap shots.

QFT - but one step farther because Downey may have taken 1 penalty/2.94 games but he only played 4 minutes and 35 seconds per game where as Lidstrom played 26 minutes and 43 seconds per game. So one of Downey's games is not even very comparable to one of Lids. I did the math to try and figure out what the TOI per penalty was: Downey was 6th on the team in terms of minor penalties last year (with 23) but he was dead last, 29th, in time on ice per game (4.35 minutes per game and 256:56 for the entire season). Lidstrom on the other hand was 9th on the team in minor penalties (with 20) but he was first in time on ice per game (26:43 per game and 2030:44 for the entire season - and this is against the best the other team has to offer). That means that Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 seconds that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice.

Yeah, that is what we should hope for in our hockey players. Maybe we could let them all carry around knives or if that gets too boring for you guns. That would be way scarier and after all that is the point of hockey. I have even heard that they are going to start giving out the Lord Vader / Lord Voldemort Trophy to the player "who should be in prision" and is the way scariest.

Once again you are quite the fan, nothing but good to say about the opposition and nothing but bad for the Wings. I wasn't talking about glove dropping, Ericsson handled himself just fine, and smartly unlike many players - I'm talking about late hits, boarding, hits from behind, and other goon play that you seem to love so much. If the Wings had done this to Hiller, there would have been retribution but probably not in the form of dropping the gloves, it would have been intentional injury to one of our star players, that would have been awesome though. That's a big if, and either way we probably lose the game due to a 5 minute major penalty, have to deal with their goons trying to injure our guys in retribution, have to deal with the controversy that comes with such a despicable and pathetic action. Yeah it's a net plus. I guess that the Bertuzzi hit on Moore was a "net plus" for Vancouver because it put the Avs a man short. Some actions are NEVER a net plus because the actions are so despicable, pathetic, and beyond the pale of decency.

+1 :clap: That is the truth. I like Downey but from the video that looked way over the line. That goalie could have been hurt badly and it is not something to be applauded.

I disagree that it would be a net plus. It could easily result in a 5 minute major penalty (based upon the video I saw) which could cost the Wings a game, also the Ducks have far more guys willing to goon it up and take out any one of Ozzy, Dats, Lids (and we can't spare to lose another Dman, not that we can ever really spare to lose Lids ), Z, or Hoss. They will play far dirtier and have many more goons that are expendable than we do.

You are correct in reducing, Downey's numbers because of fights and misconducts. However, I think that you are incorrect in your comparison of Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Kopecky, Draper, Lilja and Lebda all put Detroit on the PK more times than Downey did. While technically you may be correct (I'm not certain that you are, Downey had 23 minors, Lids had 20 and Kopy had 19 but I don't know how many of those ended up putting the Wings short handed) the time that they are on the ice is so drastically different that they are incomparable. Downey was 6th on the team in terms of minor penalties last year (with 23) but he was dead last, 29th, in time on ice per game (4.35 minutes per game and 256:56 for the entire season). Lidstrom on the other hand was 9th on the team in minor penalties (with 20) but he was first in time on ice per game (26:43 per game and 2030:44 for the entire season - and this is against the best the other team has to offer). That means that Downey took a minor penalty every 11:10 seconds that he was on the ice while Lids took a minor penalty every 101:30 that he was on the ice. Essentially, Downey took about 10 times more penalties per minute that he was on the ice. I did not go through the math to figure out the rest of the rest of the guys (except Lils because he had the most minors last year but still only one minor per 36:54 on ice as opposed to Downey's one minor per 11:10 on the ice) that you mentioned but per minute on the ice no one on the Wings took more minor penalties than Downey did last year. Edit* This post was not meant to be an anti-Downey post. I like the guy, love his heart, and energy. I'm glad that he is with the Wings organization and think that he helps the guys in GR. I don't however, have some mistaken perception that he doesn't take more penalties than other guys on the Wings.

Before the end of the series or the end of the playoffs? Not trying to be a jerk just trying to understand what Holland said.

That's part of what cracks me up. They are saying this to fool the media (i.e. professionals who cover this stuff for a living) and opponents (i.e also professionals who analyze and prepare for this type of thing professionally) yet you have figured out what the sports media and the Anaheim organization was fooled into and are so certain that you have figured it out that you criticize one of our own players (who is probably a lot tougher than anyone who reads or posts on these boards). That is why it is humorous to me.

Yeah, two of our top four D men are out. Looks like the lucky duckies will get some of the help that they need (like last time) since their skill can do it alone. Oh yeah and say what you want about Chelli but he is our 8th option and I'd still take him over Brookbank.

Oh come on NFM you know what lines he is talking about. The report is that it is an upper-body injury so the only possible upper-body injury that it could be is the groin. Edit: Yeah I know they could be lying about where the injury is but it is still funny.

But seriously nothing funny about the swine flu.

Yeah that may be the way that is is supposed to be but it is not the reality of how the Ducks and the Wings play. Look at the stats for the regular season, the play offs last year, and the season last year. The Wings ALWAYS take among the least penalties in the league and the Ducks ALWAYS take among the most penalties in the league. Additionally, the Wings put big bodies in front of the net much more and much better than the Sharks did and that is one of the places that the Ducks seem to always take bad penalties. Furthermore, look at who is being touted as the best on the Ducks, Getzlaf and Pronger and see how often it is one of those two guys that is the one taking the penalty - not their best option for those guys to take so many penalties (although it is more understandable with Pronger and what he brings to a team). The Duck may have more scoring chances than the Blue Jackets but there is a reason that Dats can win the Lady Byng and the Selke and Z can be a finalist for the Selke as well (oh and don't forget Hossa). Those guys routinely are the best defensive forwards and do so without taking tons of penalties. The Ducks have no one that can really say that.

Agree with most of your post but the guys is a professional hockey writer for the largest sports news agency in the world. I don't think that he can use the excuse that he only caught a bit of Nick's playing this year. But I agree pretty reasonable in his overall analysis.

I gotcha, true that they were not short handed every time they took one of the penalties and that negates the power play but the Wings are not the type of team that get as many of the matching penalties. They will let Getzlaf and Pronger take the only penalties rather than retaliate and even it up (most of the time). More my point was just that while much better than last year (could they be much worse) they still took a lot of penalties especially in that last game when the took 10. When you look back at the season as a whole the Wings were the 2nd least penalized team and the Ducks were the 2nd most penalized team (in the playoff the Wings averaged were the least penalized and the Ducks were 10th least penalized team). This is in large part because the Wings don't take retaliatory penalties that result in matching penalties. To me the Ducks were not that disciplined they took all those penalties, its just that the Sharks were not that disciplined either and negated the advantage (which the Wings don't often do). Edit: BTW where did you find the stats about how many times a game each team was actually short handed? I tried to find that stat somewhere but couldn't and was too lazy to look through all the box scores.