Frozen-Man

This is an excellent post and provides so very good comparisons for what guys of Mule's caliber signed for last year. My big question is whether any numbers from the last few years (when the economy was ticking up in full force - as were NHL revenues) will be any kind of bench mark for contracts at the end of this season. This was discussed at the recent GM's meeting: There has been enough discussion about the possibility of a significantly lower cap in 2010-11 that it is altering how general managers might look at moves this summer. "We would be delusional to think we won't see some impact," said Toronto Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke. Burke believes there will be the same amount of player movement this season, but he says he will be operating as if there will be a market correction. "Look at how quickly the bad economic news hit baseball. The impact it had on baseball contracts was almost instantaneous," Burke said. "It was within 90 days. There are still good ballplayers out of work." I wonder if players similar to the $4M guys last year will see anywhere near that kind of money this year. I think that there is a fair shot that guys have to take significantly smaller contracts after this season (and will probably only sign for short terms in hopes that the economy and the cap improves in a few years). All that being said it makes me kind of nervous (although Kenny and Co. are excellent at their job and will handle it fine) that we might end up with Dats, Z, Raffy, Hoss, and Mule all tied up long term and then the cap take a huge hit in 2010-11. I think that is why Kenny said "we are now debating internally how many long-term deals do we want." I think that there is general nervousness about how low the cap might go (although some hockey experts are saying it may not go down that much - perhaps if there is a TV deal with ESPN) and hopefully that will drive down contract numbers this year.

You are always so quick to argue and get a zinger in on another poster that you don't take the time to read or comprehend anyone else's posts. Tommingthepuck96 didn't call Melrose "simple" - read his post he was saying that some people are one dimensional hockey experts - and rather than use that long term to make it "simple" he abbreviated the term one dimensional hockey expert as Barry Melrose. It's kind of like the NHL is actually the National Hockey League but to make it "simple" it is usually referred to as the NHL. No one is calling the NHL simple but merely stating that NHL is a much more "simple" way of referring to the National Hockey League. Now you still may not like him calling Melrose a one dimensional hockey expert (I actually would agree with you there, I'm not a Melrose fan but the guy is very knowledgeable - just very biased as well) but at least know what you are talking about before you jump all over someone. You did that to me last week when you made up lies about me stating: Then when I called you out on it (asking you to find some where other than the present conversation that I had ever accused someone of setting up a straw man) you refused to respond because you knew it was crap, you made it up, and couldn't back it up. You're always such a jerk to people - how about you at least know what you're talking about (and quit making stuff up and lying about what other people) if you want to argue the ACTUAL points or statements that people make, great quit making stuff up and attributing it to other posters. edit: clarify

I think that we are saying different versions of the same thing. They had a spot for Downey last year and the team played awesome, but for whatever reason when they decided who was in and who was out Downey was the guy they felt they could do without. I didn't mean to imply that they didn't put Downey on the main roster because he was so bad last year that they didn't want him, I merely meant when they looked over their options this year he was the guy they thought they could do without (for better or for worse).

I see what you're saying and in my original post I said that I can see both sides of it. I can see the Wings management saying that it is just not worth giving the roster spot to a guy that only fights but I can also see them saying we have so much power elsewhere if he doesn't hurt us too bad it's worth it for retribution (keep the flies away) and because most of the fans love it. That is not what I meant what I meant was that they decided not to give him a roster spot. The decided to make him a GR guy and the only reason he even cracked the lineup is because of LTIR. I do agree that it has "to do with the players/contracts we had already committed playing time to, combined with the glut of forwards we already didn't have playing time for." But that's my point they didn't want to give a roster spot to him this year because they had other forwards that they thought offered more than just fighting, because if they gave the spot based upon fighting alone it would definitely be Downey's spot.

I disagree I can't stand McGuire he is such an idiot. Plus I met Keith Jones last year, he was staying that the same hotel as me for game 1 of the Finals. He got into the elevator with me after we won the game, saw me decked out in Wings gear and said "great game for you guys." He was really cool guy who chatted with me for about 10 minutes. I told him I had been watching the game where Lemieux turtles and gets the crap beat out of him by Mac. He was great he was laughing about the game and how cool it was to be there and be part of that whole rivalry. It was great.

Exactly, it seems too convoluted, and will only lead to problems. Does a guy have to wait after a hit to see if a penalty is going to be called before he can jump in and challenge a guy? That's going to look stupid (and never going to work) having a guy just stand there for a few seconds to see if a penalty is called and then if it is he fights if not just skates away. OK in theory but hard to implement and like Drake Marcus said will do nothing to help with the inconsistent reffing.

I didn't say Downey cost us games, I said I can see the argument of saying that because of expectations the Wings can't afford to have a constant roster spot for a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight." It was a comment to GMR as to why maybe other less skilled teams can spare a roster spot more than the Wings could. My comment was not that Downey cost the Wings games, maybe he didn't or maybe he did and we would have gotten more points (which didn't matter last year when we won by 11 points but might this year when the standings are closer and 1 or 2 points might make a huge difference) who knows - my point was merely if that spot is taken all year long by a guy (any guy) who doesn't "do much else besides fight" that it might cost us a few games. Hate to tell you but they kind of did say not doing that again, at least they decided not to do it this year. For better or for worse, after playing 56 games last year he has only played 4 games for the Wings this year, just got sent down to GR, and there are only 16 games left. Even if they bring him right back up after tonight and play him from here on out (very unlikely) he would still only play 1/3 of the games he played last year (and I doubt he even plays 10 games total for the Wings this year). In reality for whatever reason the Wings did say "we are not going to play Downey 56 games (or anywhere near that) this year."

Yeah I like those fights but I see what you are saying. I just worry that it is another step toward when they will want to fully ban fighting.

I agree in principal with the retaliation to clean hits, I think it's crap to fight a guy just because he gets a good legal hit on someone, but it just seems to me like one of those rules that will be really hard to enforce and will be have so much discretion that it will be hard to ever apply evenly. There are lots of hits that are borderline between clean and dirty. For example, Lapperriere's hit on Lidstrom last year, a lot of people think it was a clean hit and even Lids said it wasn't dirty but he did get his elbow up a little at the end and probably should have gotten 2 minutes. Can a guy fight Lappy for that hit or is that retaliation for a clean hit. I just think it will be hard to determine and may result in more penalties being called for hits that aren't dirty but are just hard hits.

I'm kind of torn here, I understand what you are saying and part of me agrees that we can spare the roster spot more than less skilled teams. We have more talent in the rest of our players so that spot is hurt as bad being lost to a guy who doesn't do much else but fight. And as a guy who would like to see a hockey fight every game (or more like every period which is why I like going to minor league games so much ) it would be great to have someone you send out knowing each time there is a great likelihood of a fight. However, then I also think that maybe having the roster spot tied up with with a goon would hurt us more than the less skilled teams. Not all but a lot of those less skilled teams have no illusions of winning the Cup. They know realistically they are not going to win the whole thing - the Wings do not have that luxury lately, every year it is considered a failure by most if we don't win the Cup or at least go to the finals. This means we HAVE to win games more than most teams and really want to be first overall. If having that spot taken by a guy who doesn't "do much else besides fight" costs the Wings a couple of games it might mean the difference between home ice for a couple of rounds which might be the difference between advancing and not. I mean teams like the Blues, the Preds, and the Blue Jackets just to name a few from our division don't have the same expectations and goals as the Wings and therefore don't have to be as good. I do get what you are saying and don't disagree but think that the reason I stated above is why the Wings don't have a roster spot for a guy who doesn't do much but fight.

QFT

Gotta agree, this team doesn't need a player (especially not for $3M) that has been scratched this year because he is too lazy to put in the work to live of to his potential and natural ability. People complained here nonstop about Lang not hustling - - this guy has been scratched and demoted to the 4th line at times this year because of his work ethic. No thanks.

It always cracks me up that no one but you and people who think exactly like you do "get it." Even Ken Holland and Mike Babcock don't get it . . . but you do. I like hockey fights, I like good fighters, but because I don't see everything exactly the way you do about whether or not one specific player should be in the lineup over another I don't get it. However, I do appreciate that you finally admit that its not really that you want someone to enforce anything, you just like to watch fights. I can understand that, it is awesome to get to watch to players go at it. However, that is why I like those middle weight guys that claim aren't enforcers - you get to watch them fight BUT you also get to watch them play some hockey, I know you don't want a middle weight because they aren't enforcers but I much prefer a guy who can fight when the situation calls for it but can also go out and play 10-15 minutes of solid hockey when the situation doesn't call for him to be fighting. If you want to say that a guy like Lucic is not and enforcer, I don't really care what you label him, he would be awesome for this team, we would get to see some grit, some big hits, a good hockey player, and some fights. See for me it is the difference between a Drake and a Downey. Downey may have had the better hands and be more of a heavy weight but taken on the whole Drake could drop them when necessary and was a good hockey, the rest of his game allowed him to eat up time on the ice giving our top line forwards to play less.

If this is true a contract with ESPN should increase "hockey generated revenues" which is what is used to determine the salary cap. It could help defray the drop that is expected year after next, which would be great for the Wings.

I'd just drop the arguement, trust me it is not worth it. Nothing you say will matter or change opinions on the subject and whatever you say will just get twisted on you and all of the sudden you will be anti-enforcer, soft, and know nothing about hockey. Trust me, it's better to just let it go and move on to a new thread. :battle: :starwars2:

That's pretty much what everyone said about Quincy and then he plays great in LA and people Monday morning quarterback and get pissed that we let the guy go for nothing.

I was just thinking the same thing about short memories when Ozzy led this team (and could have won the Conn Smythe) just 276 days ago. Oh yeah and that Mule guy set a Detroit Red Wings record for most goals in a playoff series with 9, beating the previous record of 8 set by Gordie Howe in 1949. Franzen accomplished it in only four games, while Howe achieved it in seven. Yeah we have the short memory.

Especially in a year when the Wings PK has been so sub-par. Get better Lils

That is an incredible 4th line and that's still leaving Leino out of the line-up. It's crazy the options that Babs has.

That was my understanding as well. Supposedly now it is a go, but who really knows.

Awesome! That was one of the best shows ever (and they are supposed t be making a movie of the show out next year). Surprisingly the list was also really funny and really accurate.

Example 1 "You sound like an idiot." Example 2 "You are as dense as they come." Example 3 "I am so tired of know nothings" Example 4 "you have a learning disorder . . . your idotic statements on such a steady basis." Example 5 "completely benevolent to reality would be an understatement. . . . your clouded googles of ignorance." Example 6 "your inability to comprehend pretty much anything . . . the idea of intelligent discussion. This is incrediblly ironic, especially coming from you." Example 7 You "argue irrelevant points by literally contriving up things that aren't true whatsoever."

It's not a winning concept to made a bad trade just so you're not in idle mode at the deadline. Kenny has proven time and again if there is a good trade to be made he will.

He has made a move the last 6 years