Frozen-Man

Oh Yeah, don't get me wrong I wasn't disagreeing with you I would love to get Laperriere on the team - more it was just a musing in general about having a pretty big turnover in the next several year (with our older vets) and having quite a few GR kids without out much experience. It really wasn't an I hope we don't get Lappy post more a hope we can get more experience for a few of the younger guys as well somehow (actually I was thinking more about some older guys sharing more time in the playoffs with some of the kids).

I've been thinking about that aspect some as well and wondering if since we have so much experience on the team already if it wouldn't be better thinking forward to get some of those guys who don't have much experience but that the Wings will be bringing up in the next few year (and relying on more and more) would benefit from gaining some of that experience.

Hey did you guys know Kenny is on TSN?

I agree no way Lilja is leaving, he is great for this team. No he wouldn't be great for Lids money or even for Little Nick's money but I don't think they will get rid of the best shot blocker on the team, one of the best PK Dmen, and a (mostly) solid stay at home defense man whose cap hit is only $1.25M. I can't see anyone we could trade for who offers as much without taking a much bigger cap hit which we don't have.

HaHaHaHa How sad is this - it took me a good 15 seconds to realize you meant Unknown - I was trying to figure out who the the heck Unkown was, why I have never heard of him, why Phoenix would trade a guy like Jokinen for him. Sad really.

Funny, I've never seen Pierre let a little thing like facts or video proof stand in the way of his opinions.

Nobody really knows where it came from there are some stories about American and British soldiers during the war of 1812 forcing each other to eat crows but from what I have read most likely it just comes from the fact that crow is supposed to taste really really bad. Sorry I can't give you a better answer.

That has always been one of my favorite fights. It cracks me up every time because Downey doesn't even seem surprised or anything that he dropped him with one punch and then just casually and nonchalantly turns and skates to the box. Great show.

I've got nothing to back this up but when I read that Hossa would probably make the trip to Colorado with the team I immediately wondered if he wanted to be on the trip because there was going to be a press conference about him signing a new contract with the Wings being as today is the trade deadline and all. Again, nothing to back that up but just wondered if that's why he wants to be there so bad. (I can always hope that is why anyway. )

See this is the main problem, you will stop at nothing even lying about what another person says or posts in order try and make your point. I defy you to put up or shut up, you are constantly making crap up and distorting people's positions and statements. Find another time where I have accused anyone, anyone at all of setting up a straw man. As far as I know of I have only even used the phrase straw man one other time and that was to argue against someone else's statement regarding a straw man. I have never, I repeat never, accused anyone else of setting up a straw man. You accuse me of inserting straw man into every other post I make. I say that statement is a lie and ask you to look through all of my posts. Search through every post I have ever made and I guarantee you will only find one post where I even mention the term straw man and it was not me accusing anyone of creating a straw man. You are such a joke. You cannot articulate a point so you lie about what I post, accuse me of things that I didn't say, trash anyone who happens to disagree with you, manipulate other peoples words and still say nothing worthwhile and don't back up your arguments with facts or stats while trashing others who actually do. AGAIN YOU LIED ABOUT ME AND WHAT I POST - I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG.

I agree he is fun to watch and hopefully we get to see a good fight (a rarity for Wings fans). Most importantly, I hope the entire team puts forth the required effort for the full 60 minutes tonight and shows what this team is actually capable of rather than what it sunk to the other day. BTW not a bad choice on the beer and by far my favorite commercials.

Gotta agree a Lucic player would be nice. Nope having a pretty good day, just get annoyed when people don't like my post but instead of articulating a different stance call my posts "opinion laced rants" and "comically flawed analysis," and "obnoxious, and arbitrary statement." I am used to reading such bigoted posts from sureWhyNut and just laugh him off as a joke as most members here do but I took your original response to my post as in the same vein. If it was not then I apologize for being abrasive and combative in my posts back to you. I enjoy a spirited discussion and actually enjoy different points of view and discussions that come from it and if that was the spirit that you intended again I am sorry I lumped you with the likes of sureWhyNut. Cheers

Why is you opinion ok but mine is not? I will never understand how people on a forum like this complain about people giving their opinion (psssst . . . almost all these posts are opinions). Also, humorously, everyone who agrees with you has great analysis and hockey knowledge but anyone who disagrees with the almighty sureWhyNut has "comically flawed analysis. I have an idea instead of your stupid and childish insinuations why don't you show me one place where I have "comically flawed analysis." Not analysis you merely disagree with or have a different view of but that is "comically flawed." Becasuse if you look I do provide statistical backing for my opinions. Oh yeah and I guess Kenny Holland and Babs have comically flawed analysis as well because they have not agreed with your views of how to run this organization. Finally, please stop setting up your stupid straw men in reference to me - you will not find anywhere in this entire thread where I say anything remotely like "how many games did Downey dress in the playoffs," and maybe you could cut out some of your obnoxious statements as well.

You really should read the posts that you are responding to so you can know and/or understand what is going on. Here is what I said with the important word in bold. Consider means - "to think about (something that one might do)" Oh and you still never said if you really disagree with all of those things from my last post.

My guess is they hung on to him for an insurance policy if they needed his particular skills and also as a great character guy in Grand Rapids.

The pent up annoyance is with someone commenting negatively on a post (mine or anyone elses) that was substantive, cogent, and backed up with a rationale with a post that said nothing of value, added nothing to further the discussion, and contained not a shred of rationale as to why my post was wrong. Furthermore, I get especially annoyed when you don't even agree with your own post (it is just flaming for the purpose of annoying others) as I will describe below. You said: However, you also said: These two comments can't mesh since my post with which you couldn't even agree with one statement EXPLICITLY stated that "Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings." Reread my post it was not a post about how the President's Trophy matters but was merely a response as to why we likely won't win it this year. How can you disagree with the statement that the Bruins and Sharks are playing much better? How can you disagree with the statement having the #1 PK last year made our team better than having the #28th PK this year? How can you disagree with the statement that Ozzy having a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA is not better than him having a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year? That is where my annoyance comes from, a post with no thought or argument that even you didn't believe. There is a balance and many on these boards would like a good enforcer/grit player but don't feel we have a good option and don't think Downey will solve that need. I would have been annoyed regardless of the side of the debate you took. I didn't care in fact I couldn't tell because you post was useless.

I apologize, I did miss that. I thought you were stating that he was a big part of the reason for the success rather than that they had great success whether he was dressed or not (sounds odd saying he was not dressed - I mean who wants to grapple and fight the naked guy). I would agree with you then, I don't think Downey is a great liability to this team, I think he is great for energy, locker room presence, and overall emotion (which has been lacking), I just feel there are better options especially since the Wings will probably call several of the guys up full time next year. However, I agree that any talk that he is a great detriment to the team is baseless.

Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me that because I don't think one specific player (nothing all all to do with gritty players or enforcers - I was ecstatic when we got Drake last year) will not really help this specific Wings team with the flaws in their team game that somehow means that I know nothing about hockey, hate all enforcers/grit players, want to ban fighting from the NHL, am not a true fan, and cannot make valid points on any subject related to hockey. We are talking about a guy that Wings management (the absolute best of the best) has seen fit to play only one game and yet somehow I am a moron for thinking that Kenny and Babs have been wrong in their assessment of what the best Red Wings team looks like. I would love to have a good enforcer/grit player but I don't think that Downey provides it and think that the roster spot, playing time, and NHL experience would be better spent on guys that are being groomed to be part of the team for a long time to come, and it pisses me off that because my opinion differs some ****** acts superior and thinks that they are the end all and be all of hockey knowledge because they have played pond hockey and been in the city league for generations. And it really annoying (like trying to reason with a three year old) when some responds to a post that you spent time thinking about and backing up with a valid rationale by saying you don't know what you're talking about but not having the intelligence or ability to argue a counter point (and often times there is a valid counter argument but they feel they don't have to argue it (or don't understand it) because they have played hockey for generations. I love a good hockey fight and if Downey gets into a fight tonight I'll be screaming at the TV and will rewind the DVR to watch it many times, but as far as what it best for the team in the long run I think other guys help the team more and would benefit from the time more than Downey - and that is not an invalid point of view.

It's not often that someone join a forum, and on day one act like a hockey god because you have played for generations, (kudos, I'll bet you're the only one here to have accomplished that feat ) and then attack another person's post (which agree with it or not I backed up with relevant and cogent rationale) without refuting any aspect of the post with any rationale of their own. It was brilliant having such an illuminating discussion with you and having your deep insight and analysis on the subject. I don't care if you disagree with my statements or thoughts on the subject but at least have the sack to make an argument in favor of your position rather than posting like a kindergartner. Also, congrats it rare that I consider blocking a poster on the first day that they sign-up. Edit: Oh and you are an absolute moron if you don't understand or agree with the statement that the Sharks playing much better this year (on pace for 125 points) than last year is one of the reasons they might be the team that wins the President's Trophy.

Not really disagreeing with your premise what we need a guy who is willing to fight but I don't think your going to get those 5 fighting majors from Downey this year. If you want to dress a guy with at least 5 fighting majors Mac has 5 already, Lilly has 3, Hoss has 1, and Downey has 0. And yes I know Downey has only played in one game this year but if we have to have a guy with 5 fighting majors to win the Cup and there are only 19 games left Downey will have to get in a lot of fights in a few number of games. I doubt that he will even get to play in 10 of the last 19 but if he does he has to fight in 50% of those games, whereas if we dress Mac the Cup is ours as he already has 5 fights or if Lils isn't concussed to bad for the rest of the season he only needs 2 more.

You use incredibly flawed logic to create a fact to prove something that is just not provable in the slightest way (aside from the fact that if you follow your logic to its conclusion since Hossa took Downey's spot and we were better last year we should sit Hossa for Downey). I'll illustrate it this way, it is my understanding that Lids is playing with a new brand of gloves (saw something about that in between periods). I could take every statement that you said and say: "And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself. Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself. Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself." My statements are just a provable as "fact" as yours are (for the record I do think Drake had a big impact on this team but there is a big difference between Downey and Drake). In fact probably more so because you say Downey's spot was taken by Hossa but Downey only got 4:35 TOI/G and Hossa gets 18:14. Hossa may be in the roster spot but is not taking his minutes or playing in virtually any situation where Downey was playing. I think the difference from last year to this year are things such as: 1) having the best PK in the league last year as opposed to one of the worst this year (which none of the guys that you mentioned were on either year); 2) having a goalie who last year had a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA and a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year; 3) having guys who were hungry to win the Cup rather than had a hangover (or less motivation) from winning it the year before and less time off from going deeper into the playoffs; and 4) your whole premise requires the rest of the league to remain static. If you look at the Wings projected points this year if they stay on their current pace they will have 117+ points which is 2 more points than they had last year. That's right for everyone's complaining we are actually on pace to finish higher than we did last year. If you took the two teams THIS year's team is actually on pace to win the President's Trophy over last year's team. What then has changed that we probably won't win it? Well it probably isn't that Downey played 56 games last year and only 1 this year, it is much more likely that other teams got better and are winning more games than they did last year. The Sharks are on pace for 125 pts after only getting 108 last year and the Bruins are on pace for 121 pts this year after only 94 last year. Both of these point totals will kick the crap out of the Wings point total for last year. Whether last year's total or this year's pace the Bruins and Sharks are set to beat them - so I fail to see how them being that much better than last year lends any credence to the "fact" that the Wings won the President's Trophy when Downey played 56 games (they also won it with Lids getting injured and sitting out several games but I don't think that will help the team either). Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings.

I think we moved beyond what I was originally talking about. . . I have no quibble about whether Shelley or Laraque is better - my original post way back was that Downey does not provide what either of them provide as enforcers. To me it is not a question of if this team needs an enforcer but does what we presently have on our roster fill the role and give the team the benefits that a true enforcer (Shelley or Laraque) provides. I think Downey does not fill that role and thus the roster spot is better utilized elsewhere. Edit: I agree I haven't seen Downey enough this year to judge his fighting or enforcing presently - my feelings are based upon past years (and the few GR fights I've seen video of this year) and the fact that Holland and Co. hasn't thought they were impressive enough to bring up (or keep up longer) so that we could see him more.

And again both statements go back to my original one that both Shelley and Laraque are leaps and bounds better as enforcers than Downey.

You are correct he says he is a bad enforcer (as opposed to a bad fighter), however, the only rationale for why he is a bad enforcer was "He hardly ever fights." There was no statement that he was a bad enforcer for another reason merely that he hardly ever fights. I don't think that there are many who given the choice between Downey and Laraque as the enforcer on your team would pick Downey. That was the point originally, that what you get with Downey as your enforcer and Laraque as your enforcer are drastically different.

I disagree, I think Shelley is better but in fairness I haven't seen Downey fight this year as he has hardly been up then NHL. He has as many fights in the NHL as Downey has in the AHL (only 2 since Dec. 21st) and garners much more respect as an enforcer. Again, not a big knock on Downey as a teammate or player I just don't think he fills the role of enforcer much any more. The Griffins are dead last in the AHL with 18 fights (the Admirals have 103). Also, not a knock on enforcers, one could help the team but I just don't see Downey really filling that role to any substantial degree.