Frozen-Man

Regarding ESAD :hysterical: :hysterical: THIS IS WITHOUT A DOUBT MY FAVORITE POST IN THE LAST FEW DAYS!!!!!! All that guy does is talk about how the Wings suck (management, coaching, and players) and that anyone who disagrees with him has never been to the Joe and is not a real hockey fan like him because he has had season tickets for a long time. Then he is all up on the Sharks jock about how great they are because of "Shelley's Watchful Eye" and as proof links to a Sharks fan that found out how to post his opinion on the internet (ESAD then magically turned that fan's opinion into the Shark's opinion and then ESPN's). Shelley played 9:31 had 3 hits, 1 shot, 0 blocks, and was a -1 . . . but according to ESAD is the reason for the Shark's success this season and the Wings are pansies. Tons of posts about how the Wings are weak and soft and the Sharks are better but nary a peep out of him when our Wings trounce the Sharks (who are an incredible team but not really because of Shelley).

First and foremost, I'm no big Crosby fan but he is not the most overrated player the NHL has. If you want to know what Crosby has done it is that he is 21 years old (so most people believe he will get much better) and had 102 and 120 points his first two years in the league, had his first 100 point season when he was still a teenager, already "took" his team to the SCF, and in the NHL it doesn't hurt that he's Canadian. Ovechkin is (in my opinion) better than Crosby but he had 106 and 92 points his first two years in the league, is 23 (it is assumed his game has matured more) and the biggest knock against him being the poster boy is that he is Russian and his English isn't that great. The vast majority of the fans are from Canada or the North Eastern USA and a Canadian who can speak well is a better poster boy than a Russian who hasn't mastered English yet (kind of stinks because I think Ovechkin is better but that's the way it goes). As for the other guys you mentioned Dats is much better defensively but that doesn't usually (unless its a big hit) make the highlight reel on ESPN or TSN. Plus again you have the Russian thing, he's 30 years old, and had 35 and 51 points his first two years and has never broken 100 points in a season. Finally, Iginla has kind of been an NHL poster boy in the past (again I think the Canadian thing helps), but he is 31 years old, had 50 and 32 points his first two seasons, and has been in the league 12 (didn't play in 95-96) years and never broken 100 points. Iginla has been in the league 12 years and has 799 points - Crosby has been in the league a little over 3 years and has 340 points. If he stays on pace he will have over 1200 points in the time Iginla has 799 - 50% more. DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME I'm not saying I think Sid is better than these guys (personally I would take Pav because of his overall game) because there is much more to the game than those simple stats, but when you are getting your poster boy you want a nice looking, well spoken, flashing, high point producing, young (so you can have him around for another decade at least) guy on a big market team. Like it or not the guy has talent and markets well to casual fans.

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

Me too! Just got them. I can't wait.

And Malkin needed an empty netter to get the 4th point. Go figure - he still gets the star over Pav.

Thanks for the post. I know that was rough game for you to watch but it is not really indicative of your team as a whole. Furthermore, I'm afraid that you might be right about a wake-up call for your team, it may help them keep from becoming too complacent as they roll through the season. In fact, if your the Sharks - you might as well lose 6-0 as 4-2 and the 6-0 will serve as a better reminder for the Sharks throughout the season. I hope it will help the Wings remember how important defense is to their success and provide a spark for them. Your right April through June is what counts and I expect both teams to be there for a great series. Cheer up your team is still pretty impressive.

The tough schedule not the Wings made the Sharks look bad?

Good thing the Sharks have Shelley on their team . . . he has been clutch tonight! At least acording to Archie Roboostoff :hysterical:

Man, isn't that the truth. Guys who bash, nonstop, everyone from Kenny to Babs to all the players and never have realistic solutions; never look at cap space, current needs, or waivers. It is getting so that it is not much more than internet tough guys telling others how stupid they are and they haven't liked/played hockey as long as they have. Too bad, it seems the dialog has been lowered this season especially.

EXCELLENT POST! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Do you EVER say anything positive about the Wings?

I don't know why you have to go on with the name calling. NFM made a legitimate argument, whether you agree with it or not. His point is the guy has played about 1/3 of a season part time in the AHL. Is it a good idea to bring a guy up for his first stint in the NHL when the team is giving up 3+ goals a game behind veteran goalies. That might not be good for the psyche of a goalie his first time around. Who knows maybe he excels, maybe the guys rally around him his first few times out and it unifies the team and it is great, or maybe he gets shellacked for 5 or 6 goals in his first couple of games and his confidence is shot for a while to come. Howard on the other hand has been up to the NHL before and might not feel quite the pressure or might not be affected by letting in a lot of goals. You may disagree with NFM's statement but it is far from ignorant.

I know I might get a 6 game suspension. But yeah it does help if it was stated that guys worry less (although I don't think you really can worry that much less because they have to stay constantly aware and on guard for getting run at intentionally or other wise). My comment is because some on this site (not you) act as if having an enforcer somehow magically makes your team invulnerable, other players will stop hitting your stars, no more checking, no more cheap shots, all because fear of retribution. While it does diminish it to a degree, I don't think it does as much as some, where I think it helps is in the response after those actions.

Correct, in fact if you'll notice at the end of that post I made that clear, I stated: "I just don't see him as that big a difference maker." Almost all of the statements I made in this thread (like most in this thread) are my opinion. In fact, the only reason that I posted on this thread in the first place is that I saw the topic and was intrigued. The title states that the Sharks attribute their success to Shelley. So I went and read the article: the Sharks do not "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye". In fact, no one from the Sharks is even quoted or attributed to saying anything about the subject. The only person who did "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye" is Archie Roboostoff some random guy who joined two days ago joined a site where any fan can contribute an article. This is not from ESPN that is a crock. That's right check out the site it is open source and anybody can contribute an article just like this guy did. I'm thinking of writing an article on how no TV timeouts after an icing call is why the Sharks are doing so well this year and then starting a thread here citing the article and stating that the Sharks claimed that no TV timeouts after icing calls are the reason for their success. AGAIN, THE SHARKS ARE NOT MAKING THIS CLAIM SOME SHARKS FAN WHO IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SHARKS OR EVEN A PROFESSION WRITER WHO MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO THE SHARKS MANAGEMENT OR PLAYERS JOINED AN OPEN SOURCE SITE TWO DAYS AGO AND WROTE HIS OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT THE SHARKS OPINION. To cite this as how the Sharks think about their season is silly. If this guy wants to have that opinion or any poster here wants to have that opinion that is fine BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT IS THE SHARKS OPINION. That is really what this thread was about and then I responded to a specific comment and people got pissed.

Why be such a prick? Why does it bother you so much that I disagree with you. Yes someone did contest that, and that is all I was trying to say then you and others try to start twisting stuff I never said. The original comment was that guys won't have to worry about getting run at. My ONLY point was that yes guys will still get run at and thus worry about it - I even acknowledged that the incidents were reduced by having an enforcer. I was merely trying to articulate that I don't think that is why we need an enforcer on the team - but I think there are other legitimate reasons for having one on the team. I didn't even know we got points in this thread, I was merely stating that guys will still cheap shot our players with and enforcer - the benefit that they provide is the response to the cheap shot and the mental toughness that can come from that response - but the cheap shots will still happen. AS for the straw man, I DIDN'T BRING UP THE POINT THAT OUR GUYS WOULDN'T GET RUN AT - THAT WAS BROUGHT UP BY SOMEONE ELSE. It is stupid to get mad at me for disputing a claim someone else made and then claim that I made it.

Esteef, I have always liked your posts but we are not even discussing on the same page. I wish we had a better enforcer. But look at the article, it is just written by some guy and is nothing but his personal opinion. The Sharks have had those guys you mentioned for several years (except Shelley they got for like 30 games last year) and they haven't won the Cup. They did however get a new coach who is helping that group play better. I like the Sharks, they are a good team and are fun to watch. I like their players and like the grit and never said they are trying to imitate the Wings but the Wings are pretty good too and have been pretty good for years. The Wings will probably never (at least in the near future) have a roster like the Sharks but it has worked for them. My point through all this is that Shelley is not the big difference for the Sharks and that our players will still get run at with or without an enforcer. That being said I wish we could find a good one but don't think much will change regarding the team with our without Downey being in the lineup (and for the record I would like him in the lineup over Koppey because he is more enjoyable to watch and I like to watch the fights). I just don't see him as that big a difference maker.

No need to yell, and no need to get pissy - I was making a response to a specific comment. That comment was that Downey let "our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at." My only point is that that specific statement is not true. Our guys still had to worry about getting run at - if they didn't they sure should have a la the Lidstrom hit. I never said that an enforcer is not good "for response, team morale, momentum, etc[,]" in fact I think they are great for that purpose but players will still have to worry about getting run at with or without an enforcer. I like enforcers I wish we had a good one on our team. I would love to have a guy like Lucic on the team - that was not the point of my response. Before you go off make sure you know what the other person said. All these responses to my comments are backtracking and changing the argument. Everyone acknowledges that Lids got run at last year - my ONLY point was that even with an enforcer our skill guys will still get run at. What may change is the response after one of our players gets run at, and I greatly applaud Downey's response but that does not change the fact our player still got run at. THAT WAS THE WHOLE STATEMENT - OUR GUYS WON'T GET RUN AT AND ALL I SAID IS YES THEY STILL WILL - SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE THAT IS WRONG?

Yeah we are, but not that much more. My point is that Downey did not prevent Lids and other guys from getting run at last year. The claim wasn't that Downey reduced the number of skilled Wings players getting run at but rather that when Downey is there our skill players don't have to worry about getting run at. But based upon last year . . . they obviously do, maybe not as much but they still do. If guys didn't have to worry about getting run at - what happened to Lids in that game?

If they don't put him on long term IR the roster is full and they can't bring Howard or Larssen up unless they send someone down who would likely get picked up on waivers.

QUOTE (uk_redwing @ December 17, 2008 - 04:42PM) * QFT I change my mind. This is the greatest post ever. And no Downey isnt just good at fightings. Hes good at creating energy, both on the ice and in the locker rooms, hitting and and letting our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at. Because Lids didn't get run at during the Colorado game last season when Downey was on the team. I like Downey on the team but our skilled guys still got run at with him there last year he did not change that.

Exactly guys that could play the game well (30-50 point guys for Mac and LaPointe) and much more for Shanny. That was the point that Ken Holland was making - he wants to have guys where you can roll that 4th line. He wants them to be able to play more than 3-4 minutes a game. In fact in the article Ken Holland said he would love a guy that could do what those guys did but they are hard to find. As much as I like Downey he is not like any of those players and will not have the impact that they had.

Yeah but what does that Scotty guy know - I trust ESAD much more . . . I mean he posts on LGW and said people who don't agree with him don't know anything about hockey, and only started watching in the last few years. . . It must be true . . . I mean what has this Scotty guy ever done?

Exactly, I posted this a few pages but as misleading as the thread header is its worth it again. Pretty misleading header. I read the article - the Sharks do not "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye". In fact, no one from the Sharks is even quoted or attributed to saying anything about the subject. The only person who did "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye" is Archie Roboostoff some random guy who joined two days ago joined a site where any fan can contribute an article. This is not from ESPN that is a crock. That's right check out the site it is open source and anybody can contribute an article just like this guy did. I'm thinking of writing an article on how no TV timeouts after an icing call is why the Sharks are doing so well this year and then starting a thread here citing the article and stating that the Sharks claimed that no TV timeouts after icing calls are the reason for their success. AGAIN, THE SHARKS ARE NOT MAKING THIS CLAIM SOME SHARKS FAN WHO IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SHARKS OR EVEN A PROFESSION WRITER WHO MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO THE SHARKS MANAGEMENT OR PLAYERS JOINED AN OPEN SOURCE SITE TWO DAYS AGO AND WROTE HIS OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT THE SHARKS OPINION. To cite this as how the Sharks think about their season is silly. If this guy wants to have that opinion or any poster here wants to have that opinion that is fine BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT IS THE SHARKS OPINION.

No I was not indirectly making your point, I was directly refuting the point ESAD made. He had just posted that it was pathetic that we were last in the league in fights this year. My point was that even with Drake and Downey we were last in the league in fights last year. Never once have I claimed that either guy was not important last year or anything similar. My point is even with those guys our team is not going to fight much and we didn't have to last year to win the Presidents or the Stanley Cup.

Funny, you only respect and consider unbiased opinions that you already agree with.