Frozen-Man

What's your point we were also last last year - you know the year we one the President Trophy and the Stanley Cup, and that is with Downey and Drake. Rank Team Fight Totals 1 Calgary Flames 70 2 Anaheim Ducks 69 3 Vancouver Canucks 68 4 Philadelphia Flyers 63 5 Columbus Blue Jackets 58 6 Chicago Blackhawks 57 7 St. Louis Blues 53 8 Boston Bruins 52 9 Dallas Stars 52 10 Edmonton Oilers 49 11 Colorado Avalanche 48 12 Pittsburgh Penguins 48 13 New York Rangers 47 14 Minnesota Wild 46 15 New Jersey Devils 46 16 Carolina Hurricanes 44 17 San Jose Sharks 42 18 Phoenix Coyotes 40 19 Florida Panthers 38 20 Tampa Bay Lightning 38 21 Nashville Predators 37 22 Ottawa Senators 33 23 Washington Capitals 33 24 Montreal Canadiens 32 25 Atlanta Thrashers 30 26 New York Islanders 29 27 Buffalo Sabres 26 28 Toronto Maple Leafs 25 29 Los Angeles Kings 22 30 Detroit Red Wings 21

Also, it seems like too often it pro-enforcer v. anti-enforcer. I am not anti-enforcer at all. I loved seeing Shanny drop the gloves and love seeing a fight in a game. I think that they should get rid of the instigator penalty and would hate it if they took fighting out of the game (in fact it is one of the best things about hockey - other sports players are always mouthing off but in hockey that gets you punched - it helps keep egos and attitudes in check as well as cheap shots). However, to say that Shelley is the reason for the Sharks success is silly to me; simplistic, basic, and silly. To argue that without Downey we would not have won the Cup is unimportant because it is an improvable statement. We might have lost, but I doubt it and since there is no way to alter reality there is no way to know. Drake and Downey were undoubtedly important to the team, but there is know way of knowing if we would have lost without them. Downey was not a big enforcer, he was a guy who was willing to fight and I appreciate that and loved every time that he fought but in honesty I think the grit of the team was shown more in Pav's willingness to throw the body and to muck it up on the boards. The team this year is lacking passion but I don't think that the fact that Downey will drop the gloves will change that. His enthusiasm and work ethic would likely have more of an impact on the team than being willing to fight would. The team is playing uninspired until they are down a couple of goals then they try hard. Maybe it is the fact that they played till June (Pitt looks a little uninspired as well), maybe they have Cup hangover, maybe they just don't have the desire like they did last year, or maybe they know its a long season and think they can turn it on in the second half. Who knows, but Kronner isn't hitting (neither is Stuart), Nick is playing sub-par (although picking it up lately), Dats and Z while playing hard hard have seemed a few steps off and are not getting tape to tape passes, neither goalie is playing well, and there is just a lack of jump from the team in general. I don't think Downey is going to change all that very much. The guys don't seem afraid of the other team, afraid of cheap shots, or afraid of getting hit - they just aren't working as hard as the other team - and until they do bringing up Downey or Mac or whoever won't change much.

Not wanting Kopey to go through waivers is the only reason I can think of.

No comment as to the article having nothing to do with the Sharks opinion?

Pretty misleading header. I read the article - the Sharks do not "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye". In fact, no one from the Sharks is even quoted or attributed to saying anything about the subject. The only person who did "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye" is Archie Roboostoff some random guy who joined two days ago joined a site where any fan can contribute an article. That's right check out the site it is open source and anybody can contribute an article just like this guy did. I'm thinking of writing an article on how no TV timeouts after an icing call is why the Sharks are doing so well this year and then starting a thread here citing the article and stating that the Sharks claimed that no TV timeouts after icing calls are the reason for their success. AGAIN, THE SHARKS ARE NOT MAKING THIS CLAIM SOME SHARKS FAN WHO IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SHARKS OR EVEN A PROFESSION WRITER WHO MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO THE SHARKS MANAGEMENT OR PLAYERS JOINED AN OPEN SOURCE SITE TWO DAYS AGO AND WROTE HIS OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT THE SHARKS OPINION. To cite this as how the Sharks think about their season is silly. If this guy wants to have that opinion or any poster here wants to have that opinion that is fine BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT IS THE SHARKS OPINION.

HaHaHa that's what I was thinking. Additionally, the whole point of the article that started this thread is that the Sharks lost in the PLAYOFFS last year because they didn't have a guy like Shelley in the lineup. Don't get me wrong I would love a guy who would drop the gloves more but that is not really what Drake and Downey brought to the team. We were still last in fights last year with 21 and yet we won the cup anyway. With the season just a little over 1/3 over we have 7 fights this year which will put us right about where we were last year. Again, I would love to have a great enforcer who can play well for our team but that is not really an option for our team and the good ones either take up quite a bit of cap space (which we don't have) or are fixing to be RFA or UFA's and will get that big raise.

I agree. Like I said the Wings deserved to lose the game, but I hate the phantom calls because then players start being afraid to even bump into each other and don't know if the slightest contact will get them called. If the ref can tell if it is a penalty for sure I'm in favor of him putting the whistle down instead of calling it. If you noticed there were 10 penalties in the first two periods - 50% of the first 40 minutes had penalties, then in the third 1 penalty - 10% of the final 20 minutes. But if you watched the game there was a lot more clutch and grab, interference, roughing, and hooking (according the the "New NHL" interpretation). That is just stupid - no matter who wins the game and it is not fair to players of either team to not know how to play the game. Some symbolism of consistency is all I'm asking for.

The Wings deserved to lose the game but there were stupid phantom calls in the first 2 periods and then blatently obvious calls that were missed in the 3rd. I don't really care as much about the ones that were missed in the third because I agree it just happens but I get really peeved about the stupid nothings that got called early on.

I think you make several assumptions that are not necessarily true. First you state "who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad." That is correct but both ways - we have had several guys who did much better on bad teams (for example Kyle Quincey had 0 goals, 1 assist and was a -3 in 13 regular season games with the Wings but has 2 goals, 16 assists and is a +7 in 27 games with a pretty bad Kings team). Don't get me wrong I don't think that enforcer = goon by any stretch I just don't think that your facts and numbers speak volumes because I don't think that there is enough info as I stated earlier. How many times do those guys put their teams shorthanded, how much TOI do they get a game, do they dress the player almost every game, can they block shots, win faceoffs, do they kill penalties, do they draw penalties, do they have sharp hockey minds that can help bring the younger guys along, etc.

Mule has had a few major mistakes like that this year. . . . Maybe it will help slightly limit his big pay raise next year.

Amazing, we have 6 guys on our 4th line? He was comparing more than just 4th line guys. Also, other factors always have to be considered, what are the players salaries, are they young guys who are due to get big or semi-big raises soon, are they draft picks / RFA's whose price may go up soon, what is their average TOI which can manipulate point comparison, how often do they put their teams short handed (dumb penalties), can they play more than just 5 on 5 (are they good penalty killers), are they good open ice hitter who cause the other team problems, what is their face off percentage (for the center and the back up in case he is tossed), etc. There are many aspects of those players that have to be looked at, I mean Pharros only plays 6:07 per game, which means he got his points with less ice time but it also means that he doesn't play much and other guys have to have to play more each night because that GREAT Ducks 4th line only plays 6 minutes per game.

Wow, . . . . . . Just wow.

Not every defensive breakdown should result in a goal but that first goal last night was a 2 on 0 and was really not Osgood's fault. The second wasn't much better. Ozzy did not play good last night or really all season but the team put the wings down by 2 goals early on and Ozzy poor play combined with the 2-0 and 2-1 situations that he is facing in the first minutes is putting the Wings behind and further crippling his confidence.

I know most of the guys haven't played as good as they can, which has led to some really bad plays and breaks (like the first two goals last night) but it seems like it is more a problem of effort than it is a problem with being better. That may seem like splitting hairs but one thing they can change instantly is effort and then work on the better play. From what I've seen we could be dominating games with just sustained effort for 60 minutes.

I agree. Even when we have been winning I have been frustrated with the Wings. It just seems to be a lack of effort during stretches of the game. I was at the Wings / Stars game last Friday and took 3 non-hockey people with me and throughout the 1st and and most of the 2nd periods they kept asking why it looked like the wings weren't trying very hard. Then in the latter half of the 2nd and the 3rd they they tore it up. They kept asking why they didn't play like that the whole time. One of the guys who is a basketball fan asked if it was like the last few years when Jordan and the Bulls would coast through the game and then turn it on at the end - too many playoffs and age catching up with them - I told him probably a little but I hoped not because it sure was a bad habit for them to get into.

HaHaHaHaHa That's what I was just about to post. Right on top of the rules as always Eva

I see what you are saying but I don't think that you can separate the two. The Winged Wheel is made up of individual players and we like them to be loyal to the team. Z has been a loyal little soldier for the team since he was drafted. He has worked hard year in and year out for the team and has led them to a Cup. He has given this team a lot and one of the reasons (in my opinion) that guys like Stevie, Dats, Homer, and Lids take discounts is because they know that the team will not just kick them to the curb when they are no longer the prettiest girl in the class or a better one comes along (sorry really bad analogy for hockey players but I couldn't think of anything else). I mean how long are players going to be loyal to the Wings if the Wings aren't loyal to players that have been such a part of the team. I would love to keep Hossa, Z, and Mule but unless they want to take HUGE discounts (which they might do because the Wings always take care of their players in the long run) we probably can't and I don't see how we keep getting guys to consider what is best for the Wings organization if the organization doesn't do a quid pro quo for the players.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Excellent point! While I agree that it makes overtime boring. Most people like the shootout. It is always on highlights and showcases talent. While many purists (including myself to a degree) don't like the individual aspect of it and don't think it is really part of the game - everyone I know (again myself included) loves to see the shootout and cheer and scream the entire time. The league likes this - I think think it is here to stay - it is going to be hard to take away one of the most exciting parts of a game. There are many times at a game when it is close that I see people almost rooting against their team if they are ahead by a goal in the last minute because they want the game extended, want to see a nail biter (which you often get 5 or 6 of in the shoot out - each one its own little breakaway), and to see their favorite player exhibit their skill in the shootout. Too much entertainment for the league to take it away.

And if the other team's players had machetes we would be in trouble too. But . . . . . . the playoffs aren't starting now, we always might run into a hot goalie no matter who is our goalie, and the other team doesn't get machetes. So I see no reason to get rid of a goalie who has 3 Stanley cups, two Jennings trophies, Led NHL in GAA last year (regular season 2.09 & playoffs 1.55), four time all-star, plus our #4 leader in points (who makes almost nothing) plus Flip/whoever for a goalie who has done nothing and MIGHT be better perhaps. You say Ozzy was good enough last year but is not this year? Good thing that Kenny doesn't just trade away players (especially goalies who are notoriously streaky as indicated from your comment that we might run into a hot goalie in the hypothetical playoffs that are going on right now) who are proven winners (12th all time I believe) for something new and twice the cost. Finally, Dom was one of the best goalies ever and we lost with him too. If we face a good team with a goalie that is just on fire we are in trouble a la Calgary and Edmonton recently (and we had pretty good goalies then too).

Yeah Cujo proved that common sense is not always right. Sometimes they are worse much, much worse. Sometimes what makes them good is having to be good all the time, always having to be sharp, facing 35-40 shots and being actively involved all the time - something that doesn't happen with Detroit goalies very much.

Another problem with playing till one team wins (or even just another 20 minutes) is that there are many back to back games - if you consider that a team might play 3 games in 4 nights and then tack on that one or more of those games might go an extra period or two and that is an awful lot of hockey for a team to play in 4 days (could easily be 11 or 12 periods in 4 days). I mean consider how many games the Wings have had go into OT this season. That is tons more hockey which will make the product not as good because the guys will be much more worn out. edit: clarify

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

While it is true that most Cup Champs have overcome home ice advantage the it does not mean next to nothing. In fact the home team has won 55.4% of the games over the last three seasons. That is a fairly significant swing (10.8%). True we won on the road but took a lot of pressure off of the Wings to know that even if they lost they got to go home again and play there. But yeah, the Wings are good enough to win without home ice.

I understand what you are saying and don't fully disagree BUT top goalies around the league also don't make 1.41M (cap hit) or 750K which changes the dynamic a bit.