Frozen-Man

I think that there is a big difference between the two (but I think Miller might become that good in the future). Also, to me there is a big difference in between top 3 and top 10. One is in the best 10% and the other in the best 33%. I mean in theory (I know its not this way in reality because you have to consider the team as a whole) but one would make it at least to the conference finals and maybe the SCF but the other wouldn't make it out of the first round. Especially in the position of goalie, having the very cream of the crop is such a luxury.

I agree. I was not saying that getting Flip would be of no value, if you read the post that I was responding to the issue of Kenny stating that he would match any offer for Flip and was specifically about Burke offering $3.5M to Flip, not to sign him but to mess with our salary cap. That is what I was saying I did not think would happen. If Burke really wants Flip then he may offer him $3.5M in order to have a 2nd line center (Corey Perry is actually a RW) but that is not what the post I was responding to was about. My only point is that Burke is not going to risk getting a $3.5M contract (and the loss of draft picks associated with it), if he doesn't really want the player, just in the hopes of driving our payroll up. Also, on a larger scale my point is that Kenny knows the other GM,s, players, and how to do his job better than any of us do (I mean he is the GM of the Stanley Cup champions and has his salaries and payroll in amazing shape) but there is an incessant questioning of how he goes about his job that just baffles me (not from you I realize that you say given his record we should trust him). Some people act like maybe Kenny hasn't thought of something very obvious like we could lose Flip as a RFA or that we will lose him or some GM will raise the price just because he said we would match any offer, but I just think that Kenny knows how to do his job better than we do and trust that he knows what he is doing.

I disagree. Burke can't afford to risk that we don't sign him and now he has Flip at $3.5M. He has his own Cap/RFA and can't risk jeopardizing it severely over something piddly like trying to stick it to the Wings a little bit. Also it would cost him a boat load of picks if he signs Flip at that price and would possibly screw himself out of getting Perry (or put him in a position where other GM's have a great shot at getting him).

I think that's right. He's not my favorite but he is great a just over $1M. He is solid enough and shores up our depth.

Flip has to accept the offer sheet for it to even matter and maybe they have discussed it and he won't take any other offers.

That's what I was thinking, I don't know for sure but it may just be that we thought the Kronwall was a good deal because we knew more about him as a prospect. If the guy turns out to be good then this is quite a bargain.

It looks like Scott isn't going to take so long to decide on whether or not to retire this summer. Congrats Duck Guy he really helps your team. "The veteran defenseman has decided to return to the NHL for the 2008-09 season, the final year of his current contract with the team." http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3462099

Yeah, I agree it is odd. My guess is that two things helped make up his mind faster, the team told him he had to decide and they didn't win the cup and in fact got embarrassed in the first round by Dallas - probably much easier to retire after the Cup than it is after getting it handed to you.

That's higher than I had heard it was going to be. That good news for the Wings (and good news about the financial state of the NHL as a whole).

I thought you had a very well thought out, cogent, and persuasive post, however, the player ratings on the site are not subjective at all. The ratings are entirely objective. The rating "is an index that is calculated by combining several player statistics such as points scored, plus/minus etc." and then weighted by TOI and other factors. You may disagree with the ratings, the statistics that they chose to use, or the fact that you cannot include intangibles but the ratings are entirely objective. They look at statistics and then apply them across the board to every player in exactly the same manner, thus making the statistics entirely objective, rather than subjective where the emphasis is on one's own moods, attitudes, feelings, or opinions.

The Wings want to keep Stuart on the team but only if he is willing to take a pay cut. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...8/1053/SPORTS05 He is currently making $3.5 million and will have to go lower than that to stay with the Wings. I hope that he realizes the good thing that he has here and will stay. Kenny seems to be adament that guys on the team understand that they must sacrifice for the good of the team (whether that be in a paycheck or in ice time), I wonder if it is because he is concerned with how much Z will have to be paid after his performance last season and especially through the playoffs (also Mule may cost quite a bit). I hope that we get to keep Stuart but trust Kenny to know and do what is best for the team.

I guess that Mike Gartner and Dino Ciccarelli are not very good either because they never one the Stanley Cup. No one said he won the Cup but you said that he couldn't play in the playoffs and he obviously could and had the points to back it up. Yzerman was great in the playoffs before he won the Cup - here is a secret sometimes a player can be good in the playoffs and his team still won't win the Cup. Just because you don't agree with a statement or a decision doesn't mean it might not be right or that it doesn't hold water (or else we would have all handed in Red Wings cards at the trade deadline too ). Most people think that Malkin (some of the other young Pens too to a lesser degree) will be much much better in the playoffs in years to come and especially if they play in the SCF again. I think that it is much more likely that Malkin's numbers will improve more dramatically than will Flips or Huds (and this is not trashing on either of these guys I like them both and think that they are excellent in their rolls) as you stated 1 goal 2 assists in the SCF I just happen to think that he is and will be much better than this - you can disagree but it is still a real possibility - of course what do I know I hung on to my Red Wings card.

Oh come on those statistics don't hold water Seriously though very funny! Its funny how people just regurgitate what others say.

Read the whole discussion that we were having - it had nothing to do with Dats or Z or whether the Wings would be better. I was making the point that even if the Pens don't add players (or lose players) they should (again no one knows for sure) be a much better team. It is not a question of whether the Pens will improve more than the Wings will - that has nothing to do with what we were discussing. My "argument" does hold water because what I was talking about is that I think that those 4 guys or at least several of them would play much better in the SCF - thus yes they are in fact a much better team than they were last year (this statement is irrespective of Dats, Z, McCarty, Downey, Kopecky, or Rolston ) I of course think that the Wings would still be a better team and beat them in the SCF again but that doesn't change the fact that they I think as do many people that they will be a remarkably better team next year even with no changes.

I acknowledged that they wouldn't get better because of adding players and I agree with you about it not being certain that their players get better but there are very few people that think that Crosby, Malkin, and Staal won't get better and probably an incredible amount better than they were in the SCFs. I agree that Flip, Huds, and Helm will probably likely get better (and actually I think that they will end up being much better than a lot of people here do) but most people would bet on Crosby, Malkin, and Staal increasing in ability much more than they would Flip, Huds, and Helm. That is all that I was saying is that next year or the year after if, and that is a big if, the Pens are back at the SCF I would be amazed if Crosby, Malkin, and Staal (especially Malkin) were not TONS better. I just don't think that given a year or two and the experience that they garnered this year Malkin will only have 3 points in 6 games. Oh and yeah their coaching is bad and a real cause for concern.

I disagree that the Pens have no chance of getting stronger. I agree with you that they have almost no chance of adding players and getting stronger BUT I think that Crosby, Malkin, Stall, and Fluery will all be much better if they make it back to the SCF next year. I also think that many of the Wings players will continue to improve but the young age (more room to improve) of the Pens and the fact that they lost this year will make all of those players into a stronger and harder team to play.

True, but it wouldn't look good for the organization or help build a sense of respect for players if Hossa agrees to take a big discount to stay in Pitt for a long term and then they trade him (with the added value of his cheaper contract) in the first 3 or 4 years to a team with no real chance at the cup. How screwed would you feel as a player knowing that you took a big paycut to play with a team and then they traded you away (I know it is always a risk but is seems that part of the "understanding" of a home team discount is that the home team won't send you packing - at least for several years). I like Hossa but just don't think he is the Pens most desperate need either now or in the forseeable future and as such I would be wary to lock him up for so much and so long a time when they already have so much offense.

I understand what you are saying but it is not just that there are not any elite defensemen availiable now it is that the 7 year contract will lock up $7.14 million for the next 7 years greatly hindering their chances at geting a great D man for years to come.

Great point he may not have the choice of a west coast team unless he goes back to the Kings and that thought has got to make him .

Great job by Kenny and I am so glad that we will have Babs around for another 3 years. I think that he has done so much for this team and am deeply impressed with the way that he conducts himself in public. :clap:

I agree that the interpretation creates too much subjectivity, my problem is when an individual ref doesn't seem to be consistend with his interpretation. I understand two different refs my interpret the rules differently but the same ref shouldn't interpret them differently at different times, for different players, or for different teams.

:clap::clap:

Oh but according to the Pens fans we should be so concerned because Pitt beat us a second time

You are a moron and have no idea what you are talking about. I realize that you learned in 3rd grade about past, present, and future tenses but there are many other tenses as well. For example, when someone says that the Pens have to win three games in a row (after they have one the first game), that person is speaking in the future perfect continuous tense (or possibly depending upon wording the present perfect progressive tense). Its so cute that you try to explain grammar (and demean someone) when it is painfully obvious that you have such a minute grasp of the English language but maybe you shouldn't try to teach if you don't understand what you are talking about. If the Pens are to indeed win the Cup then they will in fact have to win 3 games in a row, it does not matter that one of the wins has already happened. That win is part of a continuous line that although began in the past, is presently continuing, and will have to continue into the future in order for the Pens to win the Cup. I know that my pea sized brain may not be able to understand many things but I do realize that there are situations where a 3rd grade education doesn't give me the intelligence to articulate a position as I realize that sometime because of time continuum events are a progression from the past through the present and into the future. Amazing I know but maybe you with your big old brain can understand it.