Pens66

That post has sunk you to the aforementioned level.

Apparently. All I've done the whole thread is agree with people. My entire point was to the OP that if every team had to build with low draft picks alone, a lot of franchises would be in trouble. I did nothing but praise the Wings for the job they've done with this.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread, throughout which I've repeated almost exactly what you're saying here. I pointed out how many players you've acquired through the draft and trades for draft choices in my exchange with betterredthandead. I'm well aware of the fact that the Wings draft well and use their draft picks wisely. The argument was not that. The argument was that if you don't augment it through trades/free agency, it's all for naught. The OP seems to think that Crosby and Malkin alone win games for the Pens. The basis of my arguments is that neither team is built entirely through the draft, but through a series of well-thought-out moves using their resources. Please, before you retort in a manner that comes across in a negative way, read the rest of the thread. 99% of what you posted here is just echoing what I've been saying all along.

There was a post I think on LGP or the official board that showed some alarming inflation in the Wings playoff stats due to the thrashing of the lowly Avs. Granted, we played the lowly Sens, so it's not much of an argument, but it does provoke thought. What would the stats look like if the Wings played a better team than the Avs? Here's a snippet of the OP, from PittsburghPenguins.com board poster MarioisBack: Granted, you may find similar numbers if you examine the Pens numbers without the Sens series... But it is worth noting that both teams do have some inflated numbers. Also doesn't take into account defensive stats, which I'd also like to look at for both teams. Moral of the story: What's always on the surface doesn't always reflect what lies beneath.

Same point I've been trying to drive home since the OP. It keeps teams from getting too high or too low. It has created parity in the league, nothing could be more fair.

I hope Franzen plays. If we win, nobody will have the excuse that we didn't play a team at full strength... And if we lose, well, the Wings were the better team. Here's to the Mule.

Thank you for a much more well-thought out post than the person to whom I was originally replying. That poster didn't seem to be taking into account the concept of picks or prospects as a resource. I never once argued against the Wings being very effective at that, and in fact have made statements to support that idea. My point, originally, was that if you give a team low picks year in and year out, and that is all that their team is built on, they will be losers. You even acknowledge that vicariously in your spot-on assertation that it's not just about who you draft, but about how you use your draft picks (trades, etc) as a team resource. The poster I was responding to, and the hypothetical situation which I was addressing to the OP of the thread to a greater extent, seemed to be stating that the Wings were built solely on their draft picks. If they meant otherwise, I apologize for the misunderstanding. Again, my original point was that in a random draft, even with a salary cap, eventually some teams would be left in the dust. The current system prevents anyone from getting too good or too bad, and that the Pens built their team fair and square just like the Wings, albeit through different avenues. OP seems to forget that every team had a chance at Crosby in that particular lottery. They did it in the fairest way possible. Not to mention that the Pens were on top of the world for 10-11 years as well, just like the Wings have been. At some point, Detroit will inevitably hit some downtime, and will have to build the way the Pens have, just as those 90's Pens teams built in a somewhat similar manner to the Wings of today.

Can't possibly be worse than at Mellon, with concourses about the size of a small passenger jet fuselage. I'll feel right at home.

Agreed. I just put up a post, supported by facts, that contributes in a productive manner and tries to turn a rather uninformed statement into a fair-minded discussion of the issues that the original poster brought up. Throughout my post, I gave credit to the Wings for drafting well and being a sound organization. I've yet to see more than one or two malicious posts from Pens fans. All we want is a fair-sighted view of the series through Detroit goggles, so we can get a feel for how things might go, maybe pick up some insights we didn't see (we don't get to watch the Wings for 82 games, maybe 10-15 tops)... Nobody is crying, we're talking hockey and having a good time.

I'm not taking away from the fact that they have found some real diamonds in the rough. Having good hockey minds in your organization can take you a long, long way. The problem is, the entire team isn't built through the draft. If they were playing with nothing but some of the excellent late-round draft picks on the team, you'd be spot on. However: Chelios - Acquired via trade Drake - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent Draper - Acquired via trade Hasek - Signed as free agent Kronwall - First round draft pick Osgood - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent Rafalski - Signed as free agent McCarty - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent Granted, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, et. al were all excellent picks made by people with a very good eye for talent. My point was that without the luxury of free agency spending, most teams will not be able to sustain a winner through the draft. If you remove the free-agent signees (regardless of whether Detroit originally drafted them, they are still FA signings), as well as Kronwall (a first-round pick), the team still has a decent core but is probably not on the run that they're on. On the other side of this two-way street: Scuderi - Very solid, steady stay at home D for the Pens, drafted in the 5th round. Talbot - One of the better defensive forwards, excellent penalty killer, energy player with a knack for clutch goals, drafted in the 8th round. Fleury - #1 pick in his draft, many people don't realize or have forgotten that the Pens traded up to get him, so was not the result of the "unfair" system of losing teams getting top picks. Kennedy - Key role player for the Pens, having a great season as a 2-way rookie. 4th round pick. Ryan Malone - What needs to be said about this gritty power forward? 4th round pick. When looking at the Wings roster vs the Pens roster, you notice the Pens do have a lot of first-round picks on their current roster, vs a lot of lower-round picks on the Wings squad. However, short of Crosby and Malkin, none of their first round picks were particularly sure-bets. It still takes a good eye for talent to make a late first round pick that will be an NHL player. The NHL draft has very few sure things. There are plenty of very solid later-round picks on the Pens roster as well. Kudos to Detroit for picking some eventual superstars late in the draft, but again, don't tell me you could do that year in and year out without a LOT of help through free agency and consistently put a winning team on the ice.

Ouch. Any game where any team has a chance to win the cup is going to be through the roof. I'm dreading what I might pay for tickets to game 6.

Well-said. I must say, you guys have been amazing in welcoming us and providing good hockey talk. The picture of class. Exactly what you'd expect from a franchise that has nothing left to prove, because they've done it all. I hope my stay in Detroit is as pleasant as my short time on the boards here.

Support that statement. If the draft were random every year, surely various teams would be left out in the cold with low picks every year. Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year, which equals dwindling fan interest, which equals (not saying specifically Detroit, but a lot of markets) relocations, franchises folding, etc.... Exactly what almost buried the NHL the first time around. We suffered through Rico Fata, Kelly Bucheberger, had a year where Dick Tarnstrom was the team leader in scoring. We lost Jags, Lang, Straka, Kovy, Mario, and scores more in that time period. Crooked politics almost cost us our team which consistantly drew more than a wide array of NHL teams in less viable markets. Where was the talk of relocating the NJ Devils or the Florida Panthers? Thanks to incredible pre and post-lockout management by the Lemieux ownership group, GM Ray Shero, and others, the Pens put themselves in a good position BEHIND THE SCENES, while scores upon scores of marginal-at-best NHL'ers played their hearts out for an inferior coach (Edzo) in an aging building with ZERO luxury amenities and where it was IMPOSSIBLE to turn a profit, even with playoff revenues. If anything, Lemieux and the players who have come up through the Penguins system through the draft have stuck it out through the bad times and put themselves in a great position to win. We got Sidney and Malkin, but it wasn't as if the organization rolled over and died to get them. They had no choice but to not be competitive during those years. The ironic thing is that with the salary cap in place and a new arena on the horizon, the Pens, with increased revenue streams, will wind up eventually being hindered by the cap instead of helped. It allowed them the opportunity to be a winner, and when it gets to the point where it'd be uncompetitive for the other teams, the system puts them down a peg. At that point their fates will be again decided through the draft. Some other team will be the lucky ones. It's a testament to the system and the parity it provides throughout the league. The OP has no idea what he's talking about.

True. Haunting.