Doc Holiday

You missed the point. Considering Babcock had a team like that for an entire season and didn't say anything but that "toughness is not one bit of an issue" towards the playoffs, doesn't that mean you wouldn't trust him on that quote? Or was Babcock just wrong for a year until he agreed with your premise?

No, that wasn't the fallacy I was talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_d...imply_causation

I was just saying that correlation=/=causation. Without Downey Detroit was one game away from the cup, which many say was lost during the playoffs and not because of any wear and tear during the regular season.

He is pointing out a logical fallacy in your argument.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...ughness_is.html Did you honestly trust him then?

Could I use this as my signature? It's gold!

Then would you consider the 09 Red Wings the luckiest team alive considering the circumstances?

Take last year as an example of that. If enforcers prevented something, wouldn't that have been obvious during the one season that the Wings didn't carry one at all? And your "military" argument. If you remove the military for a year, do you think it is logical that the United States would be seriously effected because of it?

Which people cried for retribution for. Clean hit or not, Lappy went straight for Lidstrom and an enforcer didn't stop him from playing a "tough" game. We all have our opinions, including Mike Babcock. I don't know about you but I didn't see a timid Detroit team during those two games in Sweden. I saw a team that was walking all over the competition, then flat play and bad goaltending. ESAD, if you could kindly point out where I said the Wings should not have an enforcer, that would be great. Until then, nothing about what you've said is genius. And Micah, the comparison of an enforcer to a seatbelt is laughable. Seatbelts are scientifically proven to save lives. In fact it is proven that roughly 63% of those who die in car accidents were NOT WEARING SEATBELTS. An enforcer gives some a sense of security, and whether that is false or not is up to you to decide, because there isn't anything quantifiable in proof to say that an enforcer is going to protect star players from cheap shots.

Babs and Holland have no reason to bring Helm down again anyways. He has proven he belongs on this team for the past two years. No way does he deserve to be brought down a third year.

Yes, I said that, and have maintained that I enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup. Before May getting signed. There is no contradiction. I never said Holland would be out of his mind to carry an enforcer, or that Holland is a smart GM because he doesn't dress an enforcer regularly. You are full of it. Point it out, then. You seem to make multiple assertions about me without being able to deliver. It isn't that hard to pretend to be respectful.

Yeah, that Lidstrom injury in 08 must have been all my imagination. So no one labels me an "anti-enforcer euro-***** lover", I enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup. I just don't consider them someone who will make or break the team in terms of success.

Not much to gloat about, honestly.

Jesus, ESAD never gets off his soapbox. Give it a rest. May has been signed and that is great. No need to get political about it and talk smack to fans of the same team.

I gotta say I think Jake is the best troll ever.

All he said is he shouldn't be getting his hopes up. Not a huge deal.

I'm surprised you haven't demanded pay for your service yet.

Only time will tell. The problem is it seems the referees as a whole have been picking and choosing when to blow the whistle. Called a lot of penalties in the regular season last year, followed by Hal Gill Norris Trophy candidate in the playoffs. It has seemed like they have gone back to calling it like last regular season. Once again, time will tell. I don't agree with the assertion our 97/98 teams wouldn't do well, but as you said, there aren't as many true power forwards in the game today and guys like Kocur who could play the game effectively (not just like a fourth line plugger, but someone who could actually score when it mattered). Holland saw the game changing in a direction that would allow players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg to really do well, and he created a team in that likeness. In doing so he has brought the Wings to three straight conference finals appearances, a stanley cup, and two straight finals appearances. And of course it is hard to say at the time being. It has only been two games and it is unknown exactly what Williams will do for the team as a powerplay specialist and what Eaves will bring to the team.

If you listen closely you can hear the sound of ESAD jumping in the air and doing repeated fist pumps. Good for May. Would love to see him regularly in the lineup.

The problem is the 97 team was in an era of more clutch and grab, where there wasn't much space for the skilled guys which in turn meant that the ones who succeeded were the bigger guys. That's why the Wings switched from a finesse style to a grittier style in the 96 offseason with signing Shanahan and Kocur, and having the tougher guys get more ice time like Mac, Malts, Ward, etc. To have a team like 97 you'd need to do a lot to the roster, which may be possible in this coming offseason but wasn't much of an option this season. Sure you may have been able to get Malholtra and Moen, but that isn't even close to the group of guys Detroit had in 97-98.

That is blatantly false. First off, the presence of any of those players would not have prevented the game six scrum in Anaheim. That was a out of the blue first line scuffle that would not have been any less of one with an "enforcer" or fourth line of tougher players on the bench. Getzlaf is not afraid of tough guys. He is a warrior and a hockey player who knows how to play against any type of player. Perry is a scumbag who will go after the weaker guys if he has the choice (Rafalski) but is not exactly afraid of the bigger guys (Ericsson, Drake). Pronger is Pronger. He is a behemoth who punches, elbows, steps on, and crosschecks whoever the hell he feels like, regardless of who is on the other side. Enjoyment is one thing that I can level with and tip my hat to, because fighting and tough bruisers on the fourth line is damn entertaining. Prevention? Not exactly a proven outcome of having said players on the ice.

I had my head kicked in by a guy who had probably 40 pounds on me. After a fight I started. Does that count?

I hate salads. Maybe that's why I don't think enforcers will make or break a team?

And to think you could answer a question without acting like a complete jackass.

Under what context?