Chunkylover

And that was kind of my point. A few board members think they know better than Ken Holland. I disagree with that concept, not the thought of having a fighter. Careful, E_S_A_D doesn't like sexual innuendo. At least he didn't like Shoreline's explicit emoticon.

And if he can sign May to a league minimum, two-way contract, and have him available for call-ups, then May > Moen.

I actually think that Ken is moving the team toward a grittier future given the value he has for drafting college kids. If only Landon Ferraro could add 5", 50lbs., and not sacrifice any skating or scoring ability.... Talk about your all-time back-fires.

Here's my position. If Holland had signed Moen, I'd always defend him against those who would inevitably complain about his dumb penalties and slowness. But since he isn't in Detroit I'm going to defend Ken Holland against many of the "pro-enforcer" crowd who compare their deft fantasy league management to his record of wise acquisitions.

Y'know man, you started this thread, with that title, and worded the first post specifically to inspire this kind of heated discussion. If you want to run around the internet picking fights, you're going to have to deal with the enforcers! I think that's actually: Ott vs. Moen = draw, Ott 0, Colin Campbell 1.

Steve Ott is actually the one "enforcer", "grinder", "fighter", whatever the preferred term, that I would love to have on the Wings because he can actually play hockey in between fighting majors. I think his contract is up next year....

Well in that case.... I'm certainly not trying to disparage anyone who fits into your definition of an enforcer. Brett Lebda is a better hockey player than anyone on these boards, but that doesn't mean he should have a place on the roster. What your statement shows is that having a truly useful scrapper is very rare. So rare that it shouldn't be a surprise that the Wings don't have one, and haven't since Probert, Kocur, and to a much lesser extent McCarty.

But that "little pain" didn't do anything. Travis Moen fighting Steve Ott had no net effect. I'm not against him fighting, I'm just not willing to exaggerate the importance of what he did. Players like Steve Ott consider themselves effective when they are eliciting that kind of response, so who really won in that case?

Present company excluded?

Well, if you are right, then maybe May will be signed. May did look a little better than Downey in the preseason game I saw him play. Nevertheless I don't think any useful players were available, unless their usefulness is based only on their ability to fight.

No one in this thread has argued against fighting. That is precisely the question. This isn't about pro- vs. anti-fighting, it's about what is the most effective use of cap space. Is it better to have 5 minutes of Brad May, or Jason Williams on the powerplay? Time will tell, but a Williams goal will contribute more toward a win than a May fight. Good summary. Moen isn't fast enough to play in Detroit without turning into a whipping boy. When signing a grinder, one must look at all aspects of the game, not just selfishly sign a fighter because one wants to see more fights.

I know it's not what you meant, but your statement essentially says we need a fighter to protect us from... Sidney Crosby!? No star player will ever have to defend himself for a cheap-shot. If Crosby were to knock out the rest of OV's teeth with a dirty cross-check, no matter what brawler is in Washington, Crosby will never have to answer for it. Fighting is always optional and volitional. He can just skate away serve a penalty, suspension, whatever, then come back and continue to dominate. Lapperierre didn't get beat up, he chose to fight. If he didn't want to Downey would never have been able to "avenge" his captain. Look at the Flames/Islanders pre-season game where Phaneuf hit Okposo. Phaneuf didn't have to answer for anything, and he never will. I don't know if the Steve Moore incident is an example of what most people describe as the role of an enforcer. My point was that no message to that extent was delivered. Star players are always targets. Nobody who is willing to take liberties with a star player is ever going to think twice about having to fight somebody afterward. You're romanticizing the hockey fight. I think point one is debatable. I think point two probably does happen but not in every case. And yet Steve Ott is still a borderline dirty cheap-shot artist. Moen did nothing beyond that one game. I agree with your description of a useful gritty player. The Wings just haven't had someone who could fill that role since, who, pre-lockout McCarty? There isn't anyone out there even of that caliber for the Wings to sign.

Does anyone really think Ian Lapperierre avoids checking Nick Lidstrom because he might have to face Aaron Downey? Is Chris Pronger really going to stop cross-checking Dan Cleary if Clears fights him? If you think so you need look no further than the last two seasons to find that your beliefs are incorrect. No enforcer is ever going to stop a cheap shot against a star player. Corey Perry is always going to run goaltenders and Hall of Fame defensemen, without regard to having to fight Drake or Ericsson. Outside of the mere entertainment value of a fight, the effects of an enforcer are highly over-stated. The real problem is that no one is really anti-fighting, just like no one is pro-landmines. Ken Holland would love to have a fighter who could contribute something to the team, but Brendan Shanahans don't come around in the late first or second round. The issue isn't fighters vs. non-fighters, it's about the effective use of limited cap space. One last point: how does one compare the one true contribution of a fighter, which is the intangible momentum swing that comes from a good brawl with the intangible of a united veteran locker room?

I'm a little disappointed with some of you old-timers bashing the "knife fights" in Youngblood, when Slapshot invented that crap.

EA definitely has something against Detroit. The new NHL 10 commercial doesn't feature even one Red Wing. Multiple shots of Chicago and Pittsburgh are almost understandable, but they have a couple shots of a Wild goaltender.

Some real head-scratchers there: Philly behind New Jersey and New York, Carolina tops Washington in the Southeast? No way CBJ and LA finish ahead of Vancouver, Anaheim, or Detroit. It'll be an interesting season. These simulations usually pick against the Wings anyway, so no reason to worry.

Wings/Farjestad live stream on NHL.com, Wednesday at 1 p.m.

That's hilarious that their captain's name is Lindstrom.

What does the "BK" stand for: Burger Kings or British Knights?

I hope our third line looks this good against NHL-level talent.

Leino looks tough along the boards.

Anyone notice how subdued the Wings are when they score?

Is the color guy Tomas Sandstrom?

Is this the consensus? If so, I must be watching a different game....

Howard hasn't faced a lot but stopped a couple good chances. Same with the defense. The Wings have been really controlling the puck. Not trying to sound cocky or get ahead of myself, but how did Chicago lose yesterday? Is Zurich really that much better than Farjestad?