obey86

QFT, I just mentioned that above. That board is ridiculous...

If you guys think that Pens message board is bad I advise you to check out thepensforum.com They talk about stuff non hockey related about 75% of the time and generally know nothing about the sport. It's worth a laugh, check it out..

Ken Kal is on Pittsburgh Sports Talk radio right now - interviewing him about the game.

It has probably been mentioned already but Ray Whitney....I DO NOT remember this dude on the wings but apparently he played for 1 season.

CROSBY -21 years old -Considered top 2 player in NHL by media -More overall “upside” at this point -Missed significant time in 2008 season -Top season of 120 pts -More of a playmaker -More dynamic offensively -Worse defensive player -Plays on PK unit -Plays on PP unit -Less offensive talent on Pens -Less defensive talent on Pens -Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man) -Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson -Considered whiny by Detroiters -Worse at face-offs last season (51%) -Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team -Less physical player -Unknown chemistry factor with Wings -Cannot grow a playoff beard ZETTERBERG -28 years old -Considered top 10 player in NHL by media -In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked -Known to be injury-prone -Top season of 92 points -More of a scorer -Less dynamic offensively -Better defensive player -Plays on PK unit -Plays on PP unit -Superior offensive talent on Wings -Superior defensive talent on Wings -Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever) -Won Conn Smythe -Considered non-whiny by Detroiters -Better at face-offs (55%) -Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game -More physical player -Chemistry with Wings -Can grow a playoff beard I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

OMG, Franzen is so good and plays good D. I wouldn't trade him for Crosby. Right everyone? Let's hear the Red Wing bias some more. In any case, Franzen rules and is looking just like he did last year at the end of the season. Amazing.

And exactly who is #86? I just randomly picked the number, I thought maybe it was Crosby's but I looked it up and he is 87 so I do not know who you are referring to.

Laraque, Hall, Roberts, and Ruutuu were easily expendable while they were waiting to hear from Hossa. At the point that Hossa had rejected the Pens offer and signed with the Wings for less money, those players were already gone. Did you just think this up yourself or are you actually going on something that you heard or read from a reliable source. Don't go saying that these players left because they didnt like playing with Crosby unless you know that for a fact. How is something YOU made up that may or may not be true (we have no way to know) a valid point in a debate?

Uhmmmm you clearly stated you wouldn't "sign" him in your previous post. You wouldn't have to trade anybody to sign a player you do know this right? If you wouldn't "sign" a 100+ point player (considering you can still keep all the other players you want) because he whines you are dumber than I thought. At least people arguing they wouldn't trade Z or Dats have valid points. But if affordable and possible not signing a top 5 player because he whines is ridiculous. I expect you to want Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Z, and Dats off the team the next time they complain about a call.

CROSBY -21 years old -Considered top 2 player in NHL by media -More overall “upside” at this point -Missed significant time in 2008 season -Top season of 120 pts -More of a playmaker -More dynamic offensively -Worse defensive player -Generally does not play on PK unit -Plays on PP unit -Less offensive talent on Pens -Less defensive talent on Pens -Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man) -Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson -Considered whiny by Detroiters -Worse at face-offs last season (51%) -Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team -Less physical player -Cannot grow a playoff beard ZETTERBERG -28 years old -Considered top 10 player in NHL by media -In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked -Known to be injury-prone -Top season of 92 points -More of a scorer -Less dynamic offensively -Better defensive player -Plays on PK unit -Plays on PP unit -Superior offensive talent on Wings -Superior defensive talent on Wings -Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever) -Won Conn Smythe -Considered non-whiny by Detroiters -Better at face-offs (55%) -Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game -More physical player -Can grow a playoff beard I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

Why is it ok for Dats to ***** about the "officiating" but if Crosby ******* about the "officiating" he is a whiner?

Yeah who would want a player who can put up 120 points a season? Those guys are a dime a dozen. I wouldn't take Crosby even if he played for free. You can't compare the Pens organization to the Wings organization. You can't compare the Wings organization to any other organization in the NHL for that matter. So blaming the loss of the free agents on Crosby is ridiculous. Unless you are the Wings, no player is going to take ALOT less money to stay then they could get elsewhere. Especially the way GM's throw around money to free agents like that Finger guy who went to Toronto. The Pens were capped out because the front office isn't as good as ours simple as that. If they had the same amount of money as the other teams to offer to the players they lost I guarantee they would have stayed. MONEY TALKS

According to the people who vote on awards (who as you stated know alot more about the NHL than you and I) Crosby was voted the winner of the Lester B. Pearson and Hart Memorial trophies in 2007. Safe to say that if he had not gotten injured last season he would have been in the top 3 again with a chance to win. The best Datsyuk has done is 9th in 2008, best Z has done is 10th in 2008. I think basing your argument on whoever won the Selke is incredibly dumb. Basing it on any award is dumb for that matter because you know as well as I do that sports writers fall victim to the same things that fans do, they like flashiness. Which is why Lidstrom probably will never win the MVP even if he deserves it. Even if I was going to use the award argument (which as I stated is stupid) CROSBY HAS WON THE MVP WHICH HAS ALOT MORE CLOUT THAN THE SELKE EVER WILL. Don't say Dats is a better player because he won the Selke that's retarded. Basing being a better player on winning a defensive award is stupid. And as someone stated after you made the dumb remark about the Conn Smythe, if the Pens would have won the SCF CRosby obviously would have won the trophy. That is nearly always the deciding factor.. Purely for this season I take Z or Dats over Crosby. However, you can't look at it like that in a vacuum, you have to look at this season and the future at the same time which is why I am taking Crosby.

QUOTE (obey86 @ October 20, 2008 - 01:25AM) Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats. "It's about more than trading a superstar for a superstar." That was EXACTLY the point I was trying to make but some other person didn't understand so I tried to put it into retarded terms like that. They are both superstars and amazing players so the difference in production between them is going to very small if there is any difference at all. THEY ARE BOTH GOING TO PRODUCE NUMBERS BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH SUPERSTARS. So whoever said you don't want to bank on Crosby's "potential" you are dumb because he is a superstar and has already proven himself.

I'm pretty sure that no one said they would do a 2 for 1. This post has turned into a discussion of 1 for 1 more than anything.

All the Pistons do is whine and that doesn't seem to stop people from liking them. I'll take a whining superstar on my team any day of the weak as long as he produces. There isn't a player that wouldn't be liked if they came to the Wings as long as they produce numbers and wins, whining nonwithstanding.

Crosby doesn't have "potential" he has already proven he can play in this league. The only potential Crosby has is potentially putting up 150 points a season. I'm pretty sure that a player who can get over 100 points in a season is "ready to go" as you would say.

Crosby was a +18 to Z's +30 last season which really isn't that big of a difference especially considering that if Crosby didn't miss a bunch of games it could have been a little bit higher.

Look at this way. If the Pens were proposed a Z or Dats for Sid trade would they take it? You and I both know the answer is no. They aren't going to give up 8+ years of having a superstar for a player who plays more defense. Especially when that defense can be learned in the future by Sid. Gretzky or Lemieux weren't known for being good defensively. But like Crosby they were unique offensive talents. Anyone would be silly to say that they wouldn't take Gretzky or Lemieux on their team because they don't backchack as hard as other players. Much like one be stupid to turn down a supremely talented 21 YEAR OLD because he is a little lax on defense at his age right now. I love Z and Dats as much as the next guy but all you people are letting your Red Wing bias cloud your judgement.

i'm pretty sure they cant actually sing. all computerized i bet.

haha that's kind of funny, nice.

BTW, the 10 teams who have the most power plays against are a combined 18-27-11 compared to the 10 teams who have the least power plays against and are a combined 27-14-5. Yep, sounds like we need more physical undisciplined guys such as McCarty to take more penalties so we can lose more.

I never understood the "every team needs a token fighter/physical guy to stick up for the stars" argument. Geeze, look at the Ducks this year they are in the penalty box half the time which is probably what has contributed to their poor start. Yeah that is real productive, lets get rid of an good defensive/offensive forward for someone who will take penalties and stick up for the superstars. These superstars are grown men, they aren't scared little women out there they can stick up for themselves. They stick up for themselves by digging for pucks in the corners, backchecking, and scoring. Let the "tough" guys on the other team take the penalties so that we can score on the PP. No need for McCarty, he is a terrible skater and provides nothing for the team.

Apparently you missed my point. You cannot go wrong with having EITHER player. They are both obviously very skilled and in the top 5, 10 players in the league. Put either player on the Wings and you could win a championship. I know it is impossible but if someone was to somehow quantify each player's "skill" level on a scale of 1-100 the difference would hardly be noticeable. Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats. So being essentially the same skill-wise why wouldn't you trade for the player who is 8 years younger? This would allow the team to win NOW and win LATER. You are making it sound like if we had Crosby right now we couldn't compete for a championship and would have to wait until he was in his prime.

I don't think anyone would trade 2 top ten forwards for 1 top ten forward but if you wouldn't do a 1 for 1 swap for Crosby you are clearly delusional. Think of it this way with two players of another sport who are in no way related to Detroit. Any team would love to have either Kobe or Lebron. The talent level between them is negligible and you could argue either way for who is "better". Having either of them would improve your team. Sure, Kobe is known for being better defensively and also known for being the better overall scorer as he is a better 3-point shooter and shoots better from the free throw line. Even if you do feel Kobe is better overall than Lebron i'm pretty sure 99% of people would trade Kobe for Lebron. The question comes down to this: is the increase in talent over Lebron enough to justify not trading for approximately 8 more productive superstar-type seasons? EVEN IF YOU DO BELIEVE THAT ZETTERBERG OR DATS IS BETTER OVERALL, THE DIFFERENCE IS TOO SMALL TO JUSTIFY NOT TRADING FOR A PLAYER (CROSBY) WHO IS 8 YEARS YOUNGER. Anyone not making that trade would be a complete fool. Either way you are going to compete for the Stanley Cup this season no matter which player is on your team. But trading for Crosby increases your chances of competing 5-7 years from now when Z or Dats are retired/at the end of their career and Crosby is just entering his prime. Unless the talent level is drastically different between the two players (which it obviously isn't) there is no reason to not trade for 8 additional years of having a superstar player.