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I understand the point, and i only said it would be for a year if he took a discount. Here is a serious question: Scenario one: Homer retires, hossa leaves, sammy leaves, hudler sign an offer sheet, or gets traded cause he wants too much. Just a scenario. You lose 4 scoring players and repalce them with whom? Thats losing more then one scoring line. Lieno COULD be ONE replacement. Babs is leaning towards Gator spending another year in GR unless he does great in camp. Look at the roster, even including Meech as full time forward and Gator, the lines are sad: Z-D-Cleary Franzen-Flip-Lieno(the rookie on the 2nd scoring line) Helm-Draper-maltby meech-Kopecky-(Abdelkader) I cant even add the last player from our system to the 3rd spot on the fourth line above without signing someone or unless Babs is wrong and Abs is UP for the year, which is what I would like-i have added Abs as our last player on the line. The third and forth lines are garbage. You cant score with either of those lines. And who is the reserve forward? Rittola and the other kids are not ready. You have to sign someone under the scenario above. They are not going to score s***,and forget about winng a stanley cup. You have to sign someone under that scenario. Whom do you sign? I merely said Sundin was an option for a year, no longer, that being at a reduced salary. With a training camp he can be in good shape and have gas in the tank, which is why he didnt fair so well in Vancouver, I watched many of the Vancouver games. His performance last year was all about Conditioning and a bit of rust. I still think he can put up atleast 60 points next year, and do well on the PP, which is fine at a reduced contract. Subtract one the scrubs, like Maltby or Meech, and insert Sundin into his place, and it seems a little better. That being said, hopefully the scenario I described above is not one we are going to experience. Hopefully we can keep hudler atleast, and only lose Sammy and Hossa, and maybe Homer to retirement(even if he doesnt hes nothing but a fourth line guy at this point cause hes too slow). in this Scenario, it looks like this: Z-D-Cleary Franzen-Flip-Lieno Helm-Abdelkader-Hudler Meech-Kopecky-Draper Maltby as the 13th forward. Not great but I could live with it for a year.

Not quite, they only have two long term deals like that, Franz and Z, but Z's is only worth 6.08 and Franzens 3.95, thats not that much money. Datsyuks is up in few years. With these long contracts, they are not overpaid, and if they retire, their cap hit doesnt count when they get old. Now look at Crosby and Malkin, 8.7 each. You can almost get three Zetterbergs for the price of two of them, seriously. Thats why we have more depth then you. 3.5 for Satan? LOL. You have to be desperate. 18.3 Million for 3 Zetts, and 17.4 for Crosby and Malkin. Id take three Z's vs those two, and thats how you spell depth. I bet when Datsyuk's contract is up he will sign the same deal as Z to save money. For a quick 4 player comparison of what that extra cash can get you.... We could have Datsyuk(when he signs his new deal), Zetterburg (thats about 12M) and Franzen(about 16M), and a 2.6 Million dollar player(18.6M) vs Crosby, Malkin and two 500k scrubs(totals 18.4M). Thats how you spell depth. That being said, Malkin and Crosby are obviously great players, but they are signed at market value. Our guys sign for less which is why we have more depth. We will settle this argument on the ice next year. Our team won't be as banged up as last year, and we will be alot better.

If we signed him, they would likely match our offer dont you think? I like him though....

Yes, but what about the roster changes that happen soon? I agree i want to get bigger grittier and younger, but what about the players we lose? Sammy rejected our offer, Hossa is most likely going to be gone, and as far as I'm concerned Homer is done, he wont put up the numbers on a line with D and Z like he did in 07-08. Hudler is along for the ride, he is limited but is good on the pp. We lose 3 scoring forwards and it hurts our depth. Depth is what makes us so good. Lieno might be able to put up some good numbers next year, maybe he cant make it? Helm and Gator wont put up scoring numbers yet either although I love them as players. You've lost an entire line of scoring, and it hurts. I'm not saying Sundin solves our problems but he helps depth. We could still bring in somegrit and size, like Chris Neil and encourage a couple of older guys to retire, while keeping sundin. It helps our scoring depth and it would only be for a year if he signed. He could focus all his energy for a cup run before father time says its time to go. Look at drake, he had a million miles on the odometer and sucked it up for one last push, and so could Sundin. Sundin is not a perimeter player either, he can hang in front of the net, something we need. I'm not saying hes the key or anything, but it COULD be a OPTION to help patch up Depth if some of the players I mentioned left-in addition to adding a guy like Neil or some other physical player that we need to throw in the mix.

He is highly skilled, why not risk a pick after round two? Ive seen his highlights and read lots on him he is the s***, and he will be close to 5'11, that Stevie Y and Sakic size so......hopefully hes still a boy that will turn into a man. Yeah that site isnt bad is it?!

No need to waste a 1st rounder on rajala, he wont go probably until the 3rd round sometime. See my post above for the reasons why...

Rajala is weak in terms of strength to the point where its suprising. I'm 5'8.5" and about 15 pounds heavier, and i can bench 150 pounds 15 times in one sitting, and usually do around 3 sets of 12 reps. All he could do is 4 reps in one sitting, or maybe not even: http://thehockeywriters.com/29-toni-rajala...draft-rankings/ Thats not good, I'm not bad with the weights, but I dont work out that much and I'm no nhl athlete. I read somewhere his doctor did some test and checked his potential bone growth, and he should be just under 5'11", which isnt too bad. Lets hope his physical strenght is just the case of him being more of a boy at this point and he matures a lot.

Don't forgot to add the scheduling...only two days rest before the scf, when the min was stated to be 3 days, and the first back to back games in the scf in fifty some odd years

puleeeeeeeeeeeeease.... ive followed this team closely.... -we were a bunch of overconfident underachievers this year that decided to show up when it suited us...that will change next year -we lost todd mcllellan and hired brad m, who didnt do a good job, suddenly the leagues best d sucks,....that will also change... -we were to slight physically this year, and older and got worn down...that will also change.... -we had massive injuries to soo many key players some of which played anyways=rafs, lids, cleary, dats, z, lilja, homer, draper...we cant be that injured next year its impossible, so...injuries will improve next year, so that will change too... -The scheduling was "cough" very against us, 2 days off before the scf when its suppose to be 3 as agreed by the league, the first back to back games in the scf in over 50 years. i could see one of these happening by themselves but both? This very much hurt det and not pitts...this will change also, buttman cant pull this same s*** twice..... --->All these things happened and your mighty pens won by 1 goal!!!!!! Do you seriously think with whats written above that your team will beat detroit next year? Welcome to the cold hard truth that every smart pens fan knows. Have fun losing next year, we are the better team and you know it....

exactly what ive been saying...hossa doesnt work with dats or z.....only with flip

Are you thinking that Flip gets traded to help get Hossa's new contract in place or are you thinking they just might move him anyways? The reason I ask this question is, if Flip does get traded to Keep Hossa, who is going to center Hossa? Flip is the only centerman that worked ok with him he was no good with Dats or Z! Oh this cap is a pain in the ass.

Yeah sorry, my bad his cap hit is 0.85M

Or you can almost pay someone to take them for you. You trade a maltby plus a low pick for a another minor leaguer of little importance and disgiuse the fact that you are giving the team a low pick to take him off your hands or another trade with a similar pick.

Yours doesnt work because Gator makes 660,000 a year, you have him earning 850. Make that change and we are just under....

I know what you are saying but... I would rather have someone bigger and more physical with more gas in the tank, that can help wear down a team during a series. We lack that. The ducks wore us out with big physical players. It would be good if we could do that to an extent. Plus having a guy like Neil for example helps protects our players from injuries. Just a thought. I love this team but we are soft and not big/physical enough. Our guys were afraid to retrieve the puck in our own end in game 7 of the scf because they were afraid of getting hit, and the pens would end up with possession of the puck. We need grinders on the forth line, Drapes and Maltby didnt bring that this year, others can. When you see a weakness, you try to improve it. Go check out Drapers stats from 2005 to 2009: Drapers Stats You see a steady year to year decline in points per game from 05 to now, and more or less the same thing with plus minus. Hes not the same guy IMO when I watch the games this year compared to 4 years ago. At what point do you sacrifice the betterment of the team over blind lotalty? We brought him here when no one wanted him, he was bought for a measely dollar. He's made good money, won a bunch of cups, was treated like gold for 16 seasons here, we halped make him who he is!! Asking him to say bye bye or sticking him on the LTIR is an advantage. This team needs fresh blood, size, grit and toughness. Lets look at Maltby: Maltbys Stats So from 2000 till the lockout buddy put up points and had a good plus minus. After that when hes past his prime physically, his production and plus minus drops off drastically, its night and day, its like two different players. He averages 25 points and plus 18 for four years, then its 10 points and -9 average for the four years afterwords. Maltby is a long for the ride at this point. I would hands down bring in Abdelkader over both guys and ditto for Neil, or Moen, etc. If Gator makes a rookie mistake every once in a blue moon, it would be fivefold made up with added speed, battles won for the puck, physicality, energy, and I'm sorry to say at this stage skill. Its time for both maltby and Draper to move on The whole blurb above is not aimed at you, I'm just speaking my mind. Dont take it the wrong way A lot of people forget what the loyalty concept is all about. By showing great loyalty and treatment to the players, more skilled players end up coming here as a whole, which benefits the team, even when you let a few of them hang on for a bit at a small expense to the team. But the whole reason for doing so is to better the team, so when it starts to hurt the team and its not going to hurt your loyalty reputation, you make the changes IMO.

Has anyone had a chance to watch Lappy this year and guage how much gas hes got left in the tank? I havent seen to much of him this season and am just going on what he was like last season and before, which was great for the role I would like him to be in here....hope he isnt near the end...

180 cm is 5 feet 10.86inches. Hes a 5'11 then, same as Matt Deuschene. So hes not that small. Think using a late 2nd rounder would be worth the risk? If we could somehow move our second rounder and something else and get a very high second round we could draft Tatar whom the wings like an awfull lot. It seems he might not last till our bottom 2nd round pick comes around...the kings look interested.

100% agreed when it comes to letting McCrimmon go, and finding a better D coach. If it was one thing, besides the lack of motivation, this year that stood out, it was our issues defensively and the detour away from our puck possession style. Why are people talking about Maltby coming back when he brings nothing to the table anymore? I would so much rather have Gator or a younger more physical semi cheap UFA in his spot. Dude is done, and we have been loyal to him, but if you cant make the team and you hurt it when you are on it, you should be cut. His Salary doesnt count if he retires. Ditto for Homer. *****On a side note to all those who want to trade Rafalski, has anyone thought that we have absolutely NOBODY to play the Right Handed Shot on the Power Play??!!! Sammy is on that spot on the 2nd Power Play Unit, and everyone says hes gone too, so, wtf do we do? Power play will be a tad lacking.

Oh the irony... LOL Off the topic in quotes...I'm tired/scared of seeing people include maltby and draper in next years line up, ditto for Homer. Yes people come to Detroit because they are loyal to the players. Just think if you had some younger players in those spots that bring energy and a bit more speed to the team, in addition to some physicality/tougness...what would the playoffs this year look like then? We could not only protect our players preventing inuries, we could wear the other team down, win more battles in the corners, and reach the puck quicker, AND not tire out as quickly as this year. Seems win win to me. We have been loyal to Maltby, Draper, and Homer, but this is a team game. Put Draper on the LTIR, sorry son your cut, I mean your groin is acting up real bad, oh what do you know your salary doesnt count towards the cap, how convenient! Matlby its been great, but its time to give the youngsters a shot, so either retire or you are traded, I mean we love you and everything maltby but its time to retire and oh so nice your salary doesnt count against the cap cause you signed the deal before you were 35. Homer might retire anyways, he just gets more and more injured, cant get the puck any more cause hes too slow, but hes a good old boy, has been a wing for how long now 13 years, hed probably retire if we asked you nicely. Thats enough loyalty, retire or we have to trade you. Be nice to homer, tell him its like that, give him a million dollars in little Caesars stock and its off to pasture. Insert neil, bring up Gator full time, and sign Lappy if there is cap room. Lieno takes Hudlers spot( and we use the pick to help move up and grab a real good player that we dont have develop for 7years)... Lieno is a bit stronger and bigger then Huds, and we need this cause we get knocked off the puck too much. Sammy might have to go too. Our forth line instead of Draper and Maltby and Meech or whoever, it would be either Neil-Helm-Lappy, or Neil-Helm-Gator. Those two line combos would create havoc, and would wear out the opposition, and intimidate them. I would love to see them work in the corners! They would be fresher in the playoffs too then Maltby and Draper. Dont put loyalty infront of doing the right thing, not when it hurts the team that u put onto the ice. Everyone is tradeable, no one is exempt from being dissapointed/sad when told they cant make the team.

When he said he sees a correlation between the 95, 96 wings and the 2009 wings, he isnt saying we won the year before in 94, hes just the team was too soft those two years like he sees this years team in 2009.

Yeah I thought it wouldnt happen but if we load up his contract at the beginning like this over ten years you could get a 4.5 million cap hit: Yr $mil 1 7 2 6 3 6 4 6 5 5 6 5 7 4 8 3 9 2 10 1 If hes only going to play till hes 37, then the last 3 years dont count against the cap, cause he was less then 35 when he signed it. So for those 7 years he averages 5.57 million in pay per year. If he plays till hes 36 then he makes 5.833 with a cap hit of still 4.5. Thats semi realistic but still a bit low.

I dont know if Nashing is leaving the jackets, its in the future, and I cant see into it. No, I'm quite in my mind, thank you. My point was by locking up all these older players to such long big contracts, what happens if a Nash or another young star could possibly want to sign with us in the future? It means were are stuck with Older players. Nash would be 26 when he could sign, Kovalchuk would be 27. I'm not saying we could sign them or they would be a fit, but it would make sense to sign younger stars to lengthy contracts, and if these younger guys are available well, we cant get them, cause we have the Oldens signed up. I said Hossa Dats and Z, I never mentioned Mule. It is expected if Hossa does sign one of those Z contracts that he would have a few no trade clause years for certain, or why else sign for less? Now when I said Hossa Dats and Z, i was right about Dats( has ntc then a nmc), I would be right about Hossa when he signshis, but it looks like I was wrong about Z, because i remember reading right when his contract was signed, some places reported that it had a bunch of NTC years at the beginning...but I just did a thourough google search and came up with nothing. Maybe those reports that came out the day it was signed were wrong and jumped the gun??!! I swear I remember reading them.. oh well. I never mentioned Franzen having a NTC in his contract like you thought I did, you say that he doesnt have them...but after a quick search, well unless these sources are wrong it looks like Mule does have a few NTC years: 1) "Reports out of Detroit claim Franzen new deal is an eye-popping 11 seasons and the cap hit will be $3.95 million per season. It’s heavily front-loaded and in the final two seasons Franzen will earn $1 million per season. The deal comes with a no-trade clause in the first five-six seasons then becomes a limited one for the remainder of the deal." Link 2)"Franzen has a no trade clause for the first 6 years of the contract." Link

Yeah, its the same D that won us a cup last year though. Maybe its not the personal, but the d coach. The team didnt look like it had the same puck posession defensive style like last year. But anyways, yeah I would love to add a big physical shutdown D man.

Exactly, thats what Ive been saying to folks on this forum for a while now. Dats Z and Hossa, six years from now are going to be like 35-36 and cant be traded, and what do we do if we have other gems that need signing. Its a recipe for failure. We have too many softies on the team already, we need some bigger dudes that can still play the game well but get their nose dirty, work the corners well, and still score. Hossa doesnt fit, this is a bad move. What happens next year when Nash is a FA? Id take him over Hossa any day, the dude wont be 26 yet. Lock up a younger guy to one of those long contracts and dont stick 15 years of no trade clause years into his contract in case he might need to be removed down the road.

LOL!!!! Ouch, that hurts. I take it you dont think much of Hossa's playoff heroics...neither do I. All Hossa's problems were created by himself. Inside his head. Thats where it lies. His problems and play were self inflicted. He was not injured, he psyched himself out. What would be really cool if is if Hossa came back for another year at a cheap price, and decided to right himself and give everything he had and help win the team the cup. With the cap this year, it wont happen. To be honest, this cap bulls*** pisses me off. The league was better without this homo bettman and the watered down league we see. If nobody gives a s*** about these teams, why not let them go under. I liked the league in the 80's. The dynasty's were great. It's awesome to see. Let the best teams reach their true glory, let them reach their potential. Let us watch the truly best two teams battle it out for all of sports most glorious prize. The pens reached their pinnacle because they sucked due to incompetence and managed to draft(luckily) two generational talents back to back, and sucked for long enough to get these high draft picks. Both luck and incompetence played a big part in the pens sucsess. For how long have we been near the bottom of the draft, yet we still have more talent then the pens who were at the top of the draft. Our org is top to bottom better then pittsburg, and you are going to see a better wings team next year mark my words. There will be no repeat in Pittsburg, hell no. Your team has less depth now, and our boys are motivated, and will play like they want it next year, and once we get back to the same system as last year defensively, there will be no stopping us. You cant win in Joe Louis and not insult our fans and our players, you are going to see the wings at their best next year. Pittsburg repeat yeah right......