talex

I would agree with most posters here with an exception. Some list #13 and #40 who have won 2/1 cups respectively. These guys have won 4 and might just win a 5th all with the wings, the only players who took part in all 4 to date, not even Stevie has 4. Looking at the way players move around now adays I do not believe this would be an issue, as you state there are alot of players that pass through, other than Mac breif stint away, these guys have all been here. I do not know how often everyone things our beloved wings are going to win cups, but I doubt we will see 4 in a 10 (lockout) year stretch anytime soon, so I do not think we will run out of numbers. Also as I stated, if they pull off a 5th, how special and how often does anyone really think this is going to happen? I think to some degree some fans do not realize how lucky we have been to have these guys, 4 cups and are still in contention. As far as #40 and #13, I love them both but their over all contribution has not equalled any of the 4 above, it hopefully will exceed those guys but at this point I think it is nuts to already want to put their numbers in the rafters. In todays free agent type market the wings may sometimes be the exception to the rule, but if you cannot get your number honored for history by sticking with a team and winning 4 cups, then who knows what the qualification should be, I guess the media and popularity should be the judge.

were either of these guys 4 cup winners on the same team?

alot of ozzie bashing here, unfortunately it is all appropriate. The wings are giving up 3 to 4 goals a game and this might allow them to make the playoffs because of the great offense, but when the playoffs start it will be over before they know it, you cannot give up 3 to 5 goals in the playoffs and expect to go anywhere. ozzie has been giving up 2 to 3 soft goals a game in most of the games played since the new year, I do not know why, I do not care why... I would sit him publicly or send him down to the Griffins if his contract allowed it. The wings are built to not require a superstar goalie, any wings goalie can figure he can give up 2 goals and get a W because the wings are a 3 goal+ a game offense, so their formula is simple, give up no more than 2 goals, score 3 or more and win the majority of games, this is the wings and Ozzie no longer fits into this mold, so you either re-work the wings or you get a goalie who can win a game with 2 freebies... sorry ozzie, either figure it out or it's time to go.

Well I knew this one would draw ire... I think they definately need to do something, if these guys get a cup this or next season, that would be 5, not 5 here and there, but 5 all with the Redwings, the recognition should not be slight, it should be Major, if not retire numbers, then a banner to acknowledge this era and the player that played a large part as a heart of the core that stayed together so long, a statue would be nice, but some recognition in the rafters proper would not bother me either... I ask myself if the wings would have won all 4 w/o these guys (particularly Mac-Fraps-Malts because them being on the same line) and honestly I do not know, having played on sports teams and knowing the value of having people who have made it to the pinnacle on a team lifts the entire bunch and at least the last 2 cups were probably heavily influenced by having guys that have done it before. I certainly hope they do something very special for these guys when they do retire.

I know, he just was on the official roster...

I understand the arguments about being past prime, however it is also hard to comprehend wings fans putting to much weight on that because we have had some teams with many 35+ players who perform extremely well, the 02 team also happen to have won the cup and if that is past your prime then bring it on! I realize that not all the players were at their peaks as well, but most of them not in their peak were still better than the majority of players in the nhl. As some of that core nears retirement age and even though it will almost certainly not happen for anyone except lids... I would like to see D acknowledge #18,#25,#33 and #96 in the rafters... I mean how many cups do they need to win in order to get their numbers retired? 4 is good enough for me, I cannot even image if they pull it off this or next year... 5!! all with one team...

I don't see any moves being made, the team is very solid other than D and Goalie. If they are to make a move it would make the most sense to pick up a goalie, it is either that or let Conks finish out the season, giving him a real shot as starter to see if he can handle it full time. Ozzie might very well step up in the playoffs, but he might not which is a HUGE risk to take with this team. I see the wings as a team that can give up 2 goals a game and win, they have not been doing this... seems like 3+ goals a game has become the norm and that to me is the only scarry thing. The offense is fine and I do not mind putting a 3 goal a game weight on their shoulders, but right now it does not seem Ozzie (and to some degree Conks) is capable of keeping oponents to 2 with any consistency. So to me the only pick up prior to the deadline that would make sense would be a goalie, we have Downey and Mac if we want to add 4th line punishers and a plethra of talents at forward/center in Leino, Helm, Abdelkader and a couple guys that can play D in Errikson and Kopechky. That's my take.

Not really an easy comparrison to make because they have 2 very different playing styles. Federov was a powerhouse speedster, more like Hossa is today, Dats is a dangler and deeker who is a great assist master. I would say Fedorov was faster and had a better/faster shot and Dats is more tricky and a better passer who should shoot more often, both of them are equally dominant in their playing style categories IMHO. Comparring them is almost apples to oranges because of the major difference in playing styles.

I am of the thought that signing Hossa would be great. If that happens I would prefer to see them do everything possible to keep Huds, Sammy and Flip here too and let Franzen walk. If the cap lowers they could always move Flip then if needed. Sammy brings to much for his 1.2 which I am hoping he stays at or even takes a small discount to stay. I like Huds/Flip/Sammy over a Franzen any day of the week, besides it leaves more of last years cup team in tact which means more guys in the locker room who knows the commitment and have been there before. That's just me though.

Many threads on here regarding the Hossa, Franzen situation... lots of examples of what the lines should look like...how about a reverse thread... No Hossa, No Franzen.... plenty of cap room... Put your lines together around that one... Z-Dats-Homer Cleary-Flip-Huds Maltby-Draper-Sammy ?-?-? what do you all think?

So one can still explore my personal preference which would be to Sign Hossa and do everything humanly possible to keep Flip, Huds, Sammy and gang... especially with Draps and Malts and Lids likely to be around only another year or 2, I like the idea of keeping these key role players around and bring up the GR guys to learn from them since they will primarily be role players as well. My Lines: Z-D-H Cleary-Flip-Hossa Sammy-Helm-Huds Malts-Draper-Lieno/Kopechy/Adbelkader Lids-Raf Nick Jr-Stuart Lilja-Lebda Errikson/Kopechy G Conks/Osgood or Conks/Howard-Larson Goaltending is a concern of mine having watched Howard be very inconsistent in GR, I just do not think he is the next starter, this could change but is where I currently stand on this issue. I also do not think decimating the rest of the lines ie: Flip/Huds/Sammy is wise just to keep Franzen. I also do not favor the idea of bringing up 3 to 5 GR guys all at once and hope they pan out, just not comfortable with that. How this will all playout is up to debate, I like the lines I put together other than I am concerned about goaltending, however signing either or both will leave very little to nothing to work on that.

Who knows what will happen. I think I acknowledged the fact that at least 1 of the 2 will likely be signed, however there are a ton of threads about that topic. I started this thread to explore what the wings might look like w/o either of them. The reality of the matter is that we have 2 super star forwards (Dats and Z) and 2 extremely strong power forwards (Cleary and Homer), 2 great young forwards/centers in Flip and Huds and a pretty solid guy in Sammy already. With Goalie woes and D lacking, it is interesting at least to me to explore what options and possibilities could occur if neither of these 2 were signed. An imagination investigation, sure... but a fun and interesting process none the less.

Well this boat can float both ways... My Top 3 start with my favorites (the ones I like). 1. Kirk Maltby - Dictionary - Antagonize: to incur or provoke the hostility of. There should be a picture of Maltby in the dictionary to go along with that explanation, I have seen him draw so many penalties over the years, this guy just get's into guys heads, I doubt we will ever hear him "micked up" but it would be awesome. 2. Joe Kocur 3. Hansen Bros Top 3 I do not like. 1. Lemieux - Obvious. 2. Crosby - just because he is forced down my throat. 3. OTT - I just do not like that guy. Oh and I would add Roloson for smashing Cleary in the nuggets if the wings had not chased him out in the 8-3 blowout... "You don't smash a man by the pills. That's just not right."

why not just call up Downey for Grit, I watch that guy play on GR and he is a human wrecking ball...

I would rather have Sammy and Flip + Hossa or Franzen rather than just Hossa + Franzen yes. Now realize my thoughts are based upon Sammys salary staying the same or slightly lowered if he is willing to, if Sammy wants 2.x or 3... well then I would say buh bye, if the Superstars are going to take some discounts to play on a great team, then the role players should do the same.

Yes I realize this, my point is that the players I listed do not cost very much for what they add, in fact my whole point was that I do not think I would trade off or write off so much of the core in 1 move like many are mentioning. Sammy, Flip, Huds, Draper etc may not be Z's or Dats but they form a good solid group. I just do not think keeping both is such a great idea, maybe it is just me but I would rather have Sammy and Flip then 1 Franzen and this is especially true if they can also keep huds.

let's see... Keep both, possibly dump Flip, Sammy, Huds, Maltby, Cheli, Mac, Draper and soon Nick will be gone, Homer will not be around alot longer either... penguins anyone? NO THANKS! Z, Dats, Homer and Cleary are all great players but like all great players they need a good supporting cast in order to be on a great team, I simply do not like the idea of ripping 1/2 the team apart with little to no cap room when some of guys retire all the while depending on GR to bat 100% with some of the young talent there, sure these kids are good, but they are not proven over the long haul, I have the opportunity to watch these GR guys several times a year and I can tell you Howard is a big question mark, very simular to Ozzy. I have seen the Milwaukee Admirals beat these guys 4 times now in a row (in Milwaukee) and have watched several games in GR. Larson seems solid enough, but I would consider him unproven... lieno plays solid, but the couple games he has played in the NHL is not enough with what I have seen to convince me he could replace Sammy, Huds or Flip. Helm is solid enough and I would deem him reliable enough to be on the wings, Adelkader is very close, but I am not sure he is ready for a full time spot, regardless in a year or 2 they very well might require a decent payday themselves if they do well. I am sticking by thought that they should sign either Hossa or Franzen and keep as much the supporting cast together as possible, leave some cap room in case our young guns are in need of a raise rather than lossing them and possibly some space to fill in gaps that may appear. I would lean to signing in the order of Hossa as priority then Franzen, although if Franzen comes in near 3, then get him, but leave as much of last years core in tact beyond these 2 as possible, bringing up as many as 5 Griffins I do not believe is the answer.

I agree, I mean what is he making 1.2? I hope they can keep him, maybe he will sign for 1 or a little less, who knows... the depth, experience and chemistry is worth letting a GR guy grow another year.... Sammy is worth every penny because we have him on the cheap for what we get.

I am concerned if they sign both. Don't get me wrong, they are both great players... The way I see it the Wings are pretty much intact from last years SC Win. Noone can speculate what Nick will do, Cheli is going to retire or go elsewhere soon, Draper and Maltby are going to probably be gone in 2 years, Mac will also be gone... none of these guys cost much but added alot of experience and heart to the team. Now there is talk of trading/loosing Huds, Flip, Sammy... all this talk nearly decimates the group that won the cup... Some may disagree but from my point of view it has been keeping a core of a great supporting cast that has made the wings so successful, I look at the Pens with their 2 super star forwards and I fear this could happen to the wings. Again don't get me wrong here, signing both may work out, but it may explode in our faces leaving little to no cap room as the heart and core of the team is ripped apart. Do you focus on keeping the core? Huds/Flip/Sammy/Lebda/Lilja etc and focus on 1 of them and give a GR or 2 guy a shot? Or sign the 2 long term and have a player carosel because of the cap with our young prospects going elsewhere because we cannot afford to keep them? Replacing Nick will not be easy, Replacing Homer will be impossible... Frankly I like the core of the team (as a team), sure some guys drop off in performance here and there, but as a team they are a tight group that overall plays extremely well together and we are currently 2 pts from the top spot in the west... Frankly I would keep 1 of the 2 and as much of the core as humanly possible to leave some breathing space as some of our heroes over the past 12 years skate gracefully out of the spotlight... That's just me though...

I know alot of people grimmice at the idea of loosing both, but other than Franzen this is same team that won the cup... If the odity occurs and neither get signed I would like to see them shore up the goalie spot and get 1 or 2 decent offensive defencemen, if not at least 1 good one and another decent forward or possibly even a real enforcer, the playoffs are always a tuff go in the 1st couple rounds because we play very physical teams and I have watched my beloved wings get bounced on more than 1 occasion due to the lack of physical play or a decent enforcer (Calgary and Iginla comes to mind), but that's just my take. If they sign neither it opens some interesting possibilities, especially intersting because of all the young talent they have in GR. Also at some point the GR kids will want their payday as well and it would be a shame if we had to loose them because of the cap.

Why this thread? Well there are some who speculate it is possible although unlikely they won't get either. Also with the cap space and UFA's it does open up some interesting possibilities particularly when you look at the Goalie and D this year, put it this way this if we need a good goalie or D-man we would have the $$ to do it. Will they sign one or the other? probably, everything points to it... but every other thread on here has that argument raging... Seems like the threads have 1 of 2 things in all of them... 1. Keep Hossa, possibly loose Huds and Flip and become a Wings/GR mix of a team 2. Keep Franzen-Hudler - maybe, maybe not have cap space. Being that the Wings will be a great team even w/o either of them... I thought it would be interesting to explore an alternative.

Frankly I want them to do what it takes to keep 4 solid lines going and if that means signing neither I would be fine with that. Tying up to much in a couple players has biten to many teams. It has been the supporting cast and the Wings ability to grind down other teams that has made them winners, sure the stars will be the stars, but it has been rolling 4 good lines that has kept us in contention year in and year out. Obviously Lidstroms number 5 will be retired, but I would not mind one bit if they also retired #'s 18, 25 and 33... they have been part of the heart and soul of this long fun winning run... but that's just me.

No one knows what is going to happen with the Hossa, Franzen situation period. We have some facts, but they do not lead to anything solid yet. Facts: * Hossa has stated on more than 1 occasion he loves it in Detroit. * Hossa took less money to come to Detroit to be on a winning team. * Hossa has fit in well with this team and seems to be having a good time. * Franzen news in the same nature has not been as numerous, but this could simply be because Hossa is getting more focus. * Franzen has also stated albiet not a loudly as Hossa that he would like to stay a RedWing * Rumor? Many say Franzen was not so easy to sign the last time. * Holland has put out many hints that 1 of the 2 will be signed before the playoff's (at this point with the time frame he put it (4 to 6 weeks a couple weeks ago) we should be hearing something within a month). Lots of speculation on moving players like Flip, not resigning Sammy and much more come into play by many in order to make more cap room and bringing up Helm and cast from GR, but these guys in a year or 2 will also demand larger paychecks.... Bottom line on all of this is that until there is an announcement, you might as well flip a coin...

I have a free single ticket for tonights game for anyone who wants it. Will be checking thread for about 15 minutes to see if there are any takers.

sorry guys I haave to go... I tried.