Jesusberg

I'm not about to say that Brunnstrom/Nyquist is better than Cleary, but when a guy is struggling like Danny is right now, maybe bump him down a few lines to give him some different looks. Cleary can't finish right now, so maybe giving someone else a shot with better finishing skills RIGHT NOW would be an idea with some merit. Even on his current line with Z he looks a little lost to me, though he's definitely trying (had like 7 shots the other night). Could just be that a change of pace could help him return to form. I'm not with anyone here saying Cleary is garbage. He's having a bad year is all. He's showed he's got finishing skills, but he's definitely snake bitten this year. Don't think the pre-season injury has helped him either. Maybe putting him on the 3rd line for a bit with Helm would give him some new looks and push him.

For my money, Smith retains. He's looked very solid to me with his time with the team. Nyquist is right there though. It's hard to put guys over others for me, especially when it's such a small sample size of strong play. I'd tempted to put Nyquist over Tatar, but Tatar has been solid for two years. And honestly, the top 20 article wasn't my best effort. I admit that. Prospect ranking isn't an exact science, but I did make a few choices that I'd like to re-evaluate, especially on defense. I'm going to post a topic in the prospects forums with how I'd rank our players positionally at the moment. Maybe we can get some discussion going there.

First off, I hope Sheahan does well, just like every Red Wings prospect. When he initially came around, I was disappointed the Red Wings didn't draft a d-man at the time, as that's what I felt their most pressing need was. It's good to see Sheahan do well at ND, considering how many people consider it to be a defensive team, unable to put up offensive numbers. Second, that's completely wrong. It's not all going off just scouting reports on the internet, though, sometimes they have to be used. Be kind of impossible to get around to see all the prospects personally. What does happen is there are contacts who DO see these players in person, and so some of the information is second hand. You have to trust these others writers in Europe and such and take their opinions at face value. The grading system has always been a frustration of mine, personally. It sends things out of whack on the depth page, because some guys are potential 3rd liners, but are sure to hit that potential. They end up being "ranked" higher up. But it is what it is. I admit, the fall edition of the top 20 had to be rushed. I'd just jumped on as the Red Wings writer again three days prior, and things were a little bit messed up. I received some poor information on several European players (which I paid for dearly when I was accused of being anti-Euro by "changing their weights") and a few college guys. Now that I've had time to get back into the swing of things, I have a more clear picture of where guys fit in our system. For my money I still like Pulkkinen more than Sheahan in terms of pure, top 6 talent. Sheahan will be accustomed to North American hockey, but that's the only obstacle I can see Teemu facing on the road to becoming a high end player. A lot of the info put out by the writers is solid, and we have a lot of good writers who really care about and pay attention the work they do. Like I said, things were rushed... I have to live with ranking Ben Marshall at number 10 for the foreseeable future. This does not please me. Edit: I also wish people posted in the prospects forums more. I had a revamped list of our prospects, ranking them positionally without any letter grades. I was going to bounce it off some of the posters here, but I noticed nobody really posts there. The spring edition of the top 20 isn't out for awhile, so it was just for discussion and feedback... but if no one posts there, kind of difficult to get the discussion going.

This line makes the most sense of anything in this thread. Not that other ideas here don't make sense, but this is really what it comes down to. This off-season will be huge for the Wings. The saying, "The Red Wings don't rebuild, they re-load" completely applies to this next off-season and what Holland can do with it. I'm not saying there aren't alternatives if he doesn't work something out, but just imagine how set this team would be in adding Parise and Suter. It almost feels like NHL 12.

I think Stuart's done a real solid job for this team, but I think him staying depends on what Lidstrom does next season too. I don't want to already toss Commodore out, but I see Smith taking his spot, rotating in with Kindl. If Lids stays (crosses fingers) I see the Wings using Stuart's hit and some of their extra cash to grab a guy like Suter to build a stronger defense core for the post-Lidstrom era. It doesn't add the grit some people want, but Suter is still great defensively and would be an awesome pick-up. Lidstrom-White Kronwall-Suter Ericsson-Kindl Smith How I see it playing out, but who knows at this point. It's early in the season, but Lidstrom just looks as good as ever to me. If Stewie does leave, I wish him all the best.

It's not about me being sold on them just because it's my opinion. In Sheahan's case, in particular, he did a whole lot of nothing during his first two seasons at Notre Dame. I still think he's a safe pick, but I'm not sure his ceiling is what people make of it. As you're saying, I don't know if he's made a pitch or not. Perhaps he has, and he's been shot down. I never said that some of our prospects weren't special; I think our prospects at forward are pretty talented actually, as I mentioned before. There's no way I could name a particular bona fide defender because I don't know who's available and for what. To try to back it into that corner is a bit ridiculous. As a general statement, I think our forward depth is much better than our defensive depth. With that in mind, it wouldn't be a bad idea to sacrifice some of that offense in order to get a little deeper on the back end. Again, I wasn't one of the people targeting Holland RIGHT NOW. I'm saying I see an area of concern, and it's one of those things where it'd be nice to nip it in the bud.

Fair point. Other teams are catching up in the cap era, but the Red Wings also aren't getting younger. To be honest, I'm worried about some of the players who will take the team over in the future. Grittier forwards with top 6 potential, such as? The issue here is, are these guys going to be good enough to make up for the loss of truly skilled players. I assume your main focus here is Sheahan. I'm not sold on him. This is the first year he's put up some point production in the NCAA. Aside from him, Aubry and Callahan pop into my head. That's great, but I'm not sure they fit into that mold. Tvrdon from the 2011 class comes to mind, but I'd like to see if he can remain healthy too. I agree with you 100% on the defensemen, though. I'm very excited about Sproul. Ouellet is struggling a bit, but Nedomlel is a pleasant surprise. Of course, there's always Smith too, but I really think he needs to calm down on the bad penalties. I'm not just talking about the pre-season hit, but his total penalty minutes and lack of discipline. I don't think we have to unload everything, but one thing I think this team CAN do is make a play for a #1 defender. I'm not 100% sold on Smith. I like our forward depth (Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen), but I'm worried about our blue line. Guys like Sproul and Ouellet are going to pop up several years down the line. Holland doesn't give up picks and prospects (on reputation) but I wouldn't mind seeing him break the bank once for a bona fide defenseman. No need to apologize, I just don't think I was reaching the levels of cynicism seen elsewhere in this thread. Bert was getting some top 6 time before the flu hit. I can't cite exactly how many games, but I'm pretty sure since Dats and Pavs have been split up. He was on a line with Zetterberg and Mule and looked terrible (in my opinion). I'm just tired of his errant passing. I think he belongs on that 3rd line, and as lazy as Happy can be, I'd rather see him in the top 6 than Bert. As far as Cleary goes, I've always been a huge fan of Cleary. I just don't think it suits him to be the focal point of a line. If the Z-Dats-Cleary line would have clicked early on, everything would have been great. Now is that on Cleary? No, Dats and Z should be playing better, and allowed Cleary to play his role (puck retrieval, screening, tips). Right now, Cleary is the focal shooter on that line and it just doesn't suit him. Datsyuk has Homer and Cleary flanking him when I think he should have some kind of pure shooter with him. I think he at least deserves Flip, but then you're breaking up that productive second line. This is where maybe Hudler comes in. I don't think he was that bad (and I've picked on him for everthing). Right now it seems to me like Datsyuk is having issues hanging onto the puck. Throw Huds in there to see if that line can possess the puck a little more, because handling the puck doesn't suit Homer or Cleary very well. To clarify, it's not necessarily about who deserves it most to me, but what combinations work and how to form some chemistry for the first line.

I'd love to know for certain too. Tried to dig up information before throwing out HF's depth article, but the most I was told was "personal reasons". Never got a secondary source on it, so I don't know what to make of it either. Perhaps he is headed to the Q after all.

I agree, and disagree with this statement. Cleary should not be counted on to be the firepower on a top line, but in no way does that mean he shouldn't be a top 6 forward. If we were basing it on pure talent, Holmstrom should have never sniffed the top 9. The difference is Homer found a way to build chemistry with line mates an be effective in his role, while Cleary seems to have struggled in that role this season. One issue early on is the entire line of Z-Dats-Cleary was struggling. All of them looked out of sync and off-base to me. The idea of line with chemistry is there, it just wasn't clicking. I feel like Datsyuk is being kind if hung out to dry right now. Not only does it seem like he still has nagging wrist injuries (assuming) but he's also got Homer and Cleary on his wings. I think he needs a little more than that to work with.

Lines have been juggled, but how long did it take Babcock to split up the twins? Why is Cleary still working on the top line? If Bertuzzi wouldn't have been hit by the flu, who knows where he'd be right now. With Mule and Hank is my guess. I've been relatively quiet through the whole 6 game drought. I haven't shaken my fist, given up on the team, or bitched at all. I saw this thread and decided to chime in. I don't really have changes that I WANT... specifically. I see players who have struggled and are left in certain positions. It's ironic that you're saying I'm assuming certain things, when you're assuming a whole lot about my intentions with my post, and what I've been doing during that skid. I'm just saying that I agree with people who think this team is slowing down, and that there are signs that management is a bit out of touch. I even included in my post that I didn't have a doom and gloom mentality. I just think the team needs to be evaluated and watched carefully. Where am I saying "I told you so" about anything? Where am I bashing anything? Saying the management is a little out of touch is a far cry from asking to blow the team up. Maybe read what I wrote again. It shouldn't be blasphemy to criticize your favorite team, so long as it's within reason.

While I completely agree that a ton of people have this mentality, there's also some legitimacy to the complaints about management on this team. Babcock has made questionable decisions with different players for a few years now (Hudler, Holmstrom in my opinion). He gets stuck on wanting things a certain way, and sometimes it feels like he's too stubborn to make changes or try new things. This team has found success for years, I agree... But at some point that formula just isn't going to work anymore. You can only get so lucky with the draft picks this team gets for so long. Babcock said himself he wanted to bring in new coaches for some new perspective, and yet it seems like there's a lot of the same going on to me. This team has been the class of the NHL for 20 some odd years, but it's going to fall eventually. Hell, Metallica was the greatest (arguably) metal band for 20 years... then Load and Re-Load hit... I don't want this team to become St. Anger. I don't think this team is doomed. I don't think this team is going to crap the bed, and I don't think the grass is greener on the other side. What I do this is management is a little bit out of touch these days, and I think it's a good idea to catch this stuff before the team really DOES slip. I don't think it hurts to TRY some new things. Tossing out some new line combinations instead of beating the same old ones to death isn't a bad idea in my opinion. While there are too many fans who are spoiled and demand change now, there are also too many fans who go, "oh, we're the Red Wings, we'll be fine." Just because some people would like to see a little change doesn't mean they're looking to blow things up completely. For one, I'd like to see some other guys rewarded with time instead of Bertuzzi and Cleary. I don't think that's blowing the team up, or going with a doom and gloom mentality; I think it's realizing two players are struggling and trying something new out.

So what you're saying is...

I admit it's a bit of a weird situation... having no cap issues and carrying one less roster player. Could just be that they want Brunnstrom to get some quality ice time in GR and play, and that Babs really doesn't want Nyquist up unless the team's doing well. Then again, it doesn't make sense to call a guy up to inject scoring into the line-up, then send him right back down without giving him a real chance. Maybe it was a last resort before pulling the trigger on a deal. Guess we'll have to wait and see if anything transpires.

Not really a Leafs fan, but I'm a big fan of Brown's game overall. That's for Brad Stuart's jaw, Tommy boy...

I took over a fantasy hockey team with Wisniewski and Mason on it, that's what happened. I jinxed the Jackets.

Agreed. Not that I'm knocking anyone, but everybody expected it's what they would do. Get it out of the way now in case they really need him somewhere down the line.

I understand that people enjoy guys to "keep the flies off" but I think what this team needs most is to make sure they can make up for the offensive losses and get better defensively. Losing Filppula and Tardif will hurt numbers, as well as Emmerton and Mursak. Not to mention that Meech chipped in quite a bit from the blueline. The issue with this team and fighting is that essentially all the "scrappy" guys are defensemen, but also the most defensively responsible guys on the club. Janik, Exelby and Amadio (not that I think he's great defensively) will all drop the gloves, but that means they're off the ice for 5 minutes and we're short a d-man too. On offense, I'd still like to see Nyquist eventually go to center, since we really lack offensive depth there. If he stays on the wing I can live with it, but whatever. One combination people haven't really mentioned is Ferraro-Coetzee. I know both guys have stunk it up as of late, but they had GREAT chemistry in Red Deer in the WHL. Reuniting them could be just the thing to help both guys bounce back this year. As much as I like Joakim Andersson, I just dunno if he's got what it takes to be a second line guy and contribute offensively. Not that I think Ferraro can immediately adjust, but I think in terms of pure offense, Ferraro will have more to offer. I'd like the lines to eventually look something like: Tatar-Johnson-Pare Nyquist-Ferraro-Coetzee Conner-Andersson-Callahan Aubry-Raedeke-Parkes I noticed that Chris Minard is greyed out on griffinscentral.com (meaning he's no longer on the active roster). He'd be the sixth veteran on the team (they can only dress five) so I think maybe he's just gone. He had a poor attitude from what I recall, and not many people liked him. Couple that with him not producing, and well... I'd rather have Conner anyway. In term of the lines I listed, I think Johnson will play better this year between Tatar and Pare. My second line is on the condition that Ferraro-Coetzee can start putting things together, and I think Nyquist would tie that up very nicely. Third line is all guys who are chippy and defensively responsible, and can add some offense as well. Fourth line has some untapped offensive potential there too, as Aubry and Parkes are familiar with each other. Aubry/Raedeke are interchangeable as centers, but I just put Aubry on the wing for now. Smith-Janik Exelby-Lashoff Amadio-Pyett I like how each pairing has a calming, veteran influence. I think Lashoff will eventually overtake Pyett on the depth chart, and being healthy will go a long way at giving him a solid season. I guess I'm just kind of lost on Pyett at this point. For a guy going into his fourth season in the AHL, I expect more out of him. Guys like Ehrhardt, Piche and Fournier can push for a spot there too, and I'd like to see some more out of all of them. MacDonald Pearce This one's kind of tough for me, because I'm not sold on McCollum being completely dead in the water yet. I think he could eventually get his spot back, but it's going to be tough. To take the spot away from Pearce I think he'll have to play really well for Toledo, coupled with Pearce playing poorly for GR. Either way, the influx of youth is a positive thing to me. A lot of guys here who are going to jump in and just start battling for spots. I think it'll be an interesting season to watch

The bummer here for me is that regardless of the number of games, he's now seen as a repeat offender in future situations.

Somebody posted this on the video feed I was watching last night. Pretty sure they were a Pittsburgh fan, so I told them it was something the Wings wanted to do to change things up.

Great read by Smith on Hudler's almost goal... then obviously Dats & Kronner looked good right after

I'm fairly sure the Rangers games are supposed to be on the NHL Network. And no... GMR wasn't joking. The team is doomed.

Reading about this over 2 hours ago, I'm still in complete shock. Still have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach over it. Just an unbelievable tragedy.

If anything, you should blame his subscribers. Who's more foolish? The fool or the fools who follow him. He's kind of like the John Edward of hockey.

I know that Jan Mursak is a better player than Ben Marshall right now... WAY better. But I also have a better idea of what Mursak's ceiling will be because of that. Mursak is 22, and is looking like a 3rd line player, with 2nd line capabilities. At 18, Marshall has done very well jumping to play in the USHL out of high school hockey. And he's got 4 years to grow still too. It's already being said of Marshall that his speed is at a way advanced level. His biggest roadblock is college hockey next year in Minny if and when Marshall shows he can't hack it at a higher level, like Mursak can... then he'd drop. But you can't knock prospects' potential just because they're young and haven't played at a higher level EDIT: Clarity

Started writing for Hockey's Future again. Figured I'd post this here to get some discussion going about our prospects. Comments and criticisms are always welcome http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/13229/smith_still_tops_talented_prospect_pool_for_detroit_red_wings/