TonyDanza

The biggest problem with our current defensive corps and goaltending is rebounds. Our undersized, offensive, puck moving D men are decent positionally but they get physically overpowered in the crease. With a goalie like Luongo, who swallows rebounds, it will extremely benefit this team. The rebounds from Conklin and Osgood kill this team.

You guys are also assuming that the "Lidstrom Cap" will still apply in a couple seasons and it won't. Its now the "Datsyuk cap". You're not going to see anyone else, including Luongo making more than $6.7 million a season. If Z and Datsyuk are taking less than $7 million, no other player on the team justifies it, including Luongo. And I don't think it'll be a problem, money was never a problem with Luongo, he just wants to play on a winning team. Which is why I think Bouwmeester and Luongo would take less than market value to play here. Luongo is already the second highest paid goalie in the league, if he wanted to be the highest, his cap hit would still only be $6.9 mill per season. Hes not going to get anything more than that on the open market.

Losing Flip and Kronwall means we could sign a guy like Hossa, Luongo or Bouwmeester. This isn't "gutting" the lineup, we're stacked on defense in the future and at center also. Luongo or Bouwmeester, combined with Datsyuk and Zetterberg signed for the next five years ensure the Wings will be contenders for the forseeable future. IF we keep Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall around then Luongo is a must because without Lidstrom this defense is terrible. If you move Kronwall and Flip for a guy like Bouwmeester, it allows you to keep average goaltenders because the defense would be solid.

So +/- is purely an offensive statistic? You're throwing out +/- because it doesn't favor your argument, when in fact, +/- applies perfectly in this situation. In most cases, +/- is pointless because you can't compare players from different teams but in this case we're comparing the 1a center and the 1b center of the same team, who both have comparable linemates, similar minutes and play the same ice time in all situations. In fact, this is by far the easiest comparison of two players ever to make. So, while +/- may not be the only indicator of defensive ability it does infact apply to this discussion. If you don't want to use it purely because it favors Datsyuk than its your perogative. Its not nearly as irrational as Zetterberg fans bringing up THE 5 on 3 from a year ago to cement Zetterberg's status above Datsyuk. When a statistic doesn't favor your boy, you bring up intangibles, leadership and other things that cannot be measured or seen.

This is why this discussion can never happen. Saying Datsyuk is the second best player on the team is fine. Saying Zetterberg is the second best forward is "mean". Similar in the way that Fedorov was the best player on this team from 1994-2004 but Yzerman was the fan favorite.

+/- is only relevant when its two comparable players. You wouldn't compare the +/- of a guy on the Thrashers and the Wings. On the other hand, we're comparing two centers, on the same team, with comparable linemates playing similar roles, getting nearly the exact same ice time. Plus minus is relevant in this discussion, if it favored Zetterberg you would be using it. YOU'RE making this about the Selke, the Selke is only part of it. Your only argument is that Zetterberg is better defensively, which is debatable. I think Datsyuk winning the Selke and Zetterberg finishing third in voting settles it but apparently not. What happens when Datsyuk finishes top three in Selke voting and Zetterberg does not? The fact is, the last thing you hold onto is defense. Like we're comparing Bure to Fedorov here. We're comparing two playmaking centers who play amazing defense on the same team. Datsyuk is outscoring Zetterberg by a large margin, the mystery defense you speak of is the only thing keeping you in this argument. Zetterberg can only be truly used as the "Shutdown center" at home. On the road, opposing coaches choose the line matches, although Babcock can sometimes change that. If Z is facing all of the top lines on the road, its because the opposing coach would rather have his top talent facing Z instead of Pavel. At home, the Wings choose to play top line versus top line. So again, your "Shutdown center" excuse has no relevance.

Nope, try again

Yes, because Zetterberg is playing epic defensively while Datsyuk is free to float as much as possible... your argument has no basis because it in fact does not exist. In 02-03 Datsyuk played in 15 less games and still outscored Zetterberg. In 03-04 Datsyuk played in 14 more games and scored 25 more points, the first season he led the team in scoring. Effectively replacing Sergei Fedorov in his third NHL season. What will the excuse be this year when Datsyuk finishes top three in Selke voting or heaven forbid wins it again? What happens if next year produces the same results? Does Datsyuk need to lead the team in scoring for a decade before hes even considered the best on the team?

If Datsyuk and Zetterberg were separated more often the discrepancy would be much larger in scoring. Everyone outside of Hossa is pretty much equal in the top six. Cleary, Hudler, Sammy and Franzen have all been paried with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The fact is, both Datsyuk and Zetterberg have changed linemates tons of times this season. It really isn't an excuse for a 22 point difference in scoring.

Datsyuk's playoff production is severely skewed from playing a very small role in the 2002 cup run. Playing fourth line minutes and riding the bench for 21 games and producing 6 points. In 2003, Zetterberg was effectively playing on the second line with Datsyuk and Hull. Datsyuk wasn't afforded that luxury his rookie season. Remove 2002, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have nearly identical stats in the post season.

Everytime a player is lacking in one area of the game, "Leadership" is brought up. See Draper and Maltby. How much "leadership" does a room need? Lidstrom and Yzerman were not ra ra, yelling type guys. Their leadership was on the ice, in the way they practiced and performed. Datsyuk and Zetterberg do both of those things. The only difference is that one speaks better English than the other. Apparently thats a problem, although everytime I see Datsyuk on the bench hes talking to someone. Everytime he does an interview you can pretty much understand him. These guys have spent years together, I really doubt Datsyuk sits in the corner by himself, says nothing to his teammates, while Zetterberg is jumping around screaming, getting people into the "zone". Again, another misconception backed by no fact that Zetterberg is somehow a better leader. Hes an obvious choice to be the next captain because hes more marketable. Its the same reason Malkin will NEVER be captain of the Pens unless Crosby is traded.

What chemistry? Kronwall - Stuart has been a brutal pairing all season and I would only consider trading Kronwall because he doesn't have a NTC and a slightly better contract than Stuart. Flip has been relegated to third line duty, playing with which ever wingers aren't in the top six for that game. We're not moving Zetterberg or Datsyuk here, its Flip, hes signed to a bad contract and he'll be the first moved if theres a problem with the cap. Hes a luxury at this point, no need to have that many talented centers, especially when you have Helm waiting for a spot. A guy like Bouwmeester gives this team a legit second PP unit. Ericsson and Bouwmeester on the point would be ridiculous. And in two or three years time you'll have Kindl coming up. The fact is, there isn't one guy in the lineup today that can replace what Lidstrom brings to this team. Bouwmeester can do that.

Im not trying to convince anyone... I brought this up to show the ridiculous arguments presented to lift up Zetterberg, even though Datsyuk has clearly been the better player since the beginning of their careers. This isn't apples and oranges, its the easiest comparison ever. If Yzerman and Fedorov both started playing in 1992, it would be pretty similar. Everyone acts as if Yzerman was the reason why this team won cups but Fedorov was the guy leading the team in scoring during the playoffs... Leadership is overrated.

Flip + Kronwall = 6.5 mill. Assuming Bouwmeester signs for that amount, it doesn't effect Hudler or Samuelsson. The only thing that effects that is the signing of Franzen.

Again, you have no basis to say Bouwmeester is in for a "money grab". He doesn't want to continue to play for a bad team, so hes exploring free agency. Detroit is an offensive defensemen's wet dream. 6.5 per year would be enough to get it done with Bouwmeester long term and would be the true replacement for Lidstrom. Call up Helm, sign Franzen, let Hossa walk. Homer-Datsyuk-Franzen Cleary-Zetterberg-Hudler Leino/Kopecky-Helm-Samuelsson Meech/Kopecky-Draper-Maltby Lidstrom-Rafalski Bouwmeester-Stuart Ericsson-Lilja/Meech Thats not a bad lineup considering our defensive laps would be pretty much cured. The goalies, mainly Osgood wouldn't be left out to dry like they are this season. And if Lidstrom feels the need to retire in a year or two, Bouwmeester can step up in a way Kronwall can't.

Trade Kronwall and Flip for picks/prospects, end of salary problem. Lidstrom - Rafalski Stuart - Bouwmeester Lijla - Ericsson fap fap fap

I think the best possible pairing is Lidstrom-Kronwall. But of course, that leaves you with Rafalski and Stuart on the ice at the same time and its a turnover disaster. Kronwall or Stuart needs to be moved...sign Bouwmeester.

Im not trashing Zetterberg, im saying hes the second best forward on the best team in the league.... and one of the top ten forwards in the league. Thats trashing? And yes, Datsyuk's short comings in the playoffs has been brought up consistently during the life of this messageboard. The 05-06 Edmonton series was the turning point, Datsyuk's injured, still played but doesn't produce, Zetterberg is fully healthy and scores 6 goals in 6 games. 06/07 - Datsyuk outscored Zetterberg in the playoffs, scoring more goals but Anahiem went on to win the series, even after Datsyuk scored two goals in the final five minutes in an attempt to tie the game and take it to game 7. 07/08 - Zetterberg outscores Datsyuk by 4 points, 3 goals. Wings win cup, Z wins Smythe. The only difference between either year is the fact that the team didn't have Franzen going nuts and breaking a goal scoring record on the second line. So yes, I don't see how Zetterberg has been miles ahead of Datsyuk in the playoffs. And if the excuse is that Z saves it for the playoffs then thats a problem. This team doesn't make it to the playoffs unless someone is playing hard during the regular season. Seems to be a common theme though, Kronwall doesn't lay a hit during the regular season either, must be "saving it" for the big games.

You're looking at a 23 game sample size while im comparing their careers since 2003. Zetterberg wouldn't have scored as much playing on the second line without Datsyuk, the various times they have been separated proves as much. And who said anything about him not being good when it matters? Again, thats the problem with this messageboard. If this was Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk it wouldn't be a problem. Don't attack the golden boy, even though every meaningfull statistic backs up my claim. Datsyuk has led this team in scoring since 2004.... how many players in Red Wings history can say they did that for so many years? Oh and he won a Selke while nearly hitting 100 points, a claim Zetterberg will never have. The Conn Smythe is meaningless, it could have easily gone to Franzen, Datsyuk or Lidstrom. Just as in 2002 it easily could have gone to Fedorov or Hasek. Using one playoff run to determine which player is better is a mistake. But of course, apparently using anything before last year is a problem also. If what I am lead to believe is true its that Zetterberg has consistently put up 95 points his entire career... What will the excuse be next season if the Twins aren't reunited? His bad back? His back is fine..... What happens when Datsyuk turns Franzen into a 50 goal scorer? Nothing, Datsyuk is leaching talent from Franzen and Zetterberg, even though hes on a different line. The love affair continues with the swedes