StevieY'sguy

read my post "light hearted thread" = I'm obviously kidding, it's 2 games into the season for god sakes! Symantecs issues???

I don't think Fedorov will make first ballot either and as far as chelios goes, if he hasn't landed anywhere yet i doubt he will...how many people need a 47 year old defenseman midway through the season over a 20 something guy in their system coming out of the AHL? My guess is not many...

Don't expect anything out of him now until after Christmas

Maybe the Caps and Wings really were the better teams than the Pens last year, but they sure showed they didn't deserve it by losing games 7 on their own ice.....Pitt has a solid top 4 D with Gonchar, Letang, McKee and Orpik, they are the best team down the middle in hockey and they have a good young goaltender. Their youth will no doubt help them as has been mentioned on here, and although everyone will be gunning for them they will most certainly make the playoffs, I see Boston as the only team complete enough to shut them down. Washington does not have any role players or leaders in their lineup and Philly has no goaltending. As far as Pitt not deserving it and having an easy road to the Cup, etc. The way I look at it is they had a MUCH tougher road than the 2008 Wings who had to beat decent Nashville, Dallas, and Colorado teams, then face a team full of inexperienced kids in the Finals with Pitt. Last year Pitt had to face an in state rival in a physical first round series, then played Ovie and the Caps and had to win that series in a game 7 ON THE ROAD, got a bit of a break with the Hurricanes in the ECF, but then had to beat last years wings team (which according to everyone here was apparently the best thing since sliced bread) in another game 7 ON THE ROAD for the stanley cup.....the 2009 Wings had a tougher path to the Finals than the 2009 Pens, i would agree...but the 2008 Wings certainly had an easier road to the Cup that the 2009 Pens.

Thornton

I was just chewing on some numbers and I've decided that i think Bobby Hull is vastly underappreciated in hockey history. I know he was a jerk and that got his due back in the day as one of the premier stars of the 1960s but as often happens with the stars of a by-gone era, his significance has diminished as players have surpassed his statistical totals. 610 NHL goals is nothing to be ashamed of and is still one of the best totals in NHL history, but i think there is an outside chance that he could have reached the total of 800 goals. - Hull finished with 610 NHL goals but left the league at the age of 33 and played 6 full seasons in the WHA. In the WHA he tallied 303 goals in 411 games, scored over 50 in 4 of those 6 seasons including an eye popping 77 goals in 78 games in 1974-1975. His career goals per game in the WHA was .737...the WHA was not on par with the NHL in competition but was not all that far off so even if you give Hull half of that GPG average had he played in the NHL during those years he would have ended up around 750 goals (and to be honest cutting the GPG in half is being more than generous because he was still on top of his game...he scored 50 goals in his last NHL season). Had he reached around those numbers he probably would have stuck around long enough to muster 800, which would have put him much higher up in the legacy category in my opinion. A similar case can be made for Mr. Hockey, he had 154 goals in his WHA years and finished with 802 in the NHL so it is very feasable he could have possibly reached 900 goals

I was bored so I decided to make a list of one or two players in the history of each organization that is the pride of that organization. Not necessarily the best players ever on for each team but a player who is the first one to come to one's mind when thinking about the history of an organization, in most cases players have spent most or at least the best years of their career with this team. See what you guys think! Anaheim- Paul Kariya Atlanta- Ilya Kovalchuk Boston- Bobby Orr Buffalo- Gilbert Perreault Calgary- Jarome Iginla Carolina/Hartford- Ron Francis Chicago- Bobby Hull Colorado - Joe Sakic Columbus- Rick Nash Dallas- Mike Modano Detroit- Steve Yzerman (neck and neck with Gordie in my mind but got the edge because Gordie played a yearw/ Hartford) Edmonton- Wayne Gretzky Florida- John Vanbiesbrouck Los Angeles- Marcel Dionne Minnesota- Marian Gaborik Montreal- Maurice Richard Nashville- David Legwand New Jersey- Martin Brodeur New York Islanders- Mike Bossy/ Bryan Trottier New York Rangers- Mark Messier Ottawa- Daniel Alfredsson Philly- Bobby Clarke Phoenix/Winnipeg- Dale Hawerchuk Pittsburgh- Mario Lemieux San Jose- Owen Nolan St. Louis- Brett Hull Tampa Bay- Vincent Lecavalier Toronto- Dave Keon Vancouver- Trevor Linden Washington- Rod Langway/ Peter Bondra

I agree wholeheartedly, in my mind the player who lost the most by playing in Gretzky's shadow, even more than Stevie Y. Has some of the most staggering stats in the history of hockey -10 seasons, 573 goals, and never played past 30 - every season in which he played at least 65 games he never scored less than 51 goals - highest goals per game average of all time .762 - only player other than wayne to have 5 60 goal seasons and have 9 50 goals seasons

Thank you, as for all of the suggestions, most of the ones that have been suggested i had thought about and had some tough decisions to make but i tried to keep it down to one for most of the teams. Calgary, NYR, Toronto, Montreal and Detroit were probably the hardest decisions for me. Calgary for me was a toss up between MacInnis, Fleury, Mcdonald and Iginla with some thought of Vernon but in the end I gave it to Iginla on the tiebreaker that he's played there his entire career. The Rangers was neck and neck for me between Leetch and Messier, they both played a big part in the Rangers Cup win and although cheap because Leetch played there longer, I gave it to Messier because in the ECF he said he would score a hat trick against the Devils and he actually did it, which in my mind is one of the most improbable moments in hockey lol. Toronto- I gave it to Keon over Dougie Gilmour because Keon won a Conn Smythe and 4 cups, while Gilmour didn't win any during his time there. Montreal i wavered between The Rocket, Beliveau, and Lafleur...Jean had the most Cups, Guy had the most goals but Maurice was really the first "It" player in NHL history so that's why i decided on him. Detroit- I really should have put Gordie on there, to be honest even I am critical of my reasoning that he played a year with the Whalers, in retrospect i would like to add Gordie to the list. Also as far as Ovechkin goes I agree that if i were to do this list again in 2-3 years barring something catastrophic he would be the Capitals representative but Bondra stayed with the Capitals through 15 mostly crappy years and i respect him for that, his edge in years barely beat out Ovie...although that won't be the case for long.

Seriously? It's been three months, it is time to move on with your lives, the Wings had a 3-2 series and a ton of momentum and they squandered it away and lost a game 7 at home. They choked, plain and simple; you can blame it on injuries or the NHL "rigging" the series or saying that Pitt didn't deserve it, or whatever else lets you sleep at night but in doing that you are whining and making excuses just like all of you constantly criticize Crosby for doing...don't be hypocrites just accept the fact that The Penguins name is going on the Cup for the 08-09 season and Detroit's is not, period.

More versatile maybe, better pure scorer? not a chance

I'd take Crosby over AO and Malkin and I'm not Canadian. I'm not going to get into a full on debate with you mainly because we have been over this exact topic before and I know you're too thick headed and hypocritical to listen to reason (For example, you've called Sid a whiner repeatedly in the past and yet you are the one who is still whining about a missed handshake 3 months after it happend...who's the 12 year old?). All I am going to say is that it's funny how everyone in the hockey world outside of Detroit and Washington consistently raves about Crosby and what kind of a once-in-a-generation type player he is...and the only people who refuse to give the guy credit is fans of the team that he has faced the last two years in the finals, and the fans of the team that has his biggest personal rival on it...call me crazy but I'm thinkin all of the smartest people in the hockey world do not live exclusively in Detroit and Washington. With all of that being said i do agree that most of this list is a travesty.

If you think Vinny is a player thats your opinion but i don't see how you can say he is a better scorer than Kovalchuk..compare their 5 highest goal scoring seasons: Vinny: 52, 40, 35, 33,32 Ilya : 52, 52, 43, 42, 41 It's not comparable, all this and Vinny has a better offensive supporting cast around him, everyone knows Ilya is the only guy who can put the puck in the net in Atlanta.

I agree, idk why everyone on this thread has such a boner for Luongo but refuse to say anything good about any other player that doesn't play for the Wings...

i agree wholeheartedly, although anyone who says Z or Dats have had a better career with the Wings then Fedorov as of right now is a complete moron. There is not a statistical or logistical argument out there to support that statement, so what if he was kind of a moron for holding out or for leaving?....that doesn't diminish what he did for the team and if you think it does, then it's time to stop acting like a 9 year old girl

I cannot agree with him never showing the ability to be a great player. Here are the names of the players who scored more points Than Val during the last year's playoffs: Malkin, Crosby Zetterburg, Franzen, Ovechkin, Getzlaf.... That list consists of the last 4 scoring champions, the last 2 conn smythe winners, and the last 3 league MVPs..I don't think anoyone in that type of company can be accused of not be able to raise their game to a "great" level

Kovalchuk

Haha no way Pronger will ever catch Crosby...Pronger is about 90 and never was fast and Crosby is 21 and flys....I can see Pitt having a rough go of it in the regular season because everyone will get up for them but I don't see anybody in the East beating them in a playoff series...They have a better chance than we do as far as making it back to the Finals...Hopefully Flip, Bert, and Ozzie can step up big, we will need big years out of them if we want the Cup.

it's irrelevant anyway, we need to hang on to stuart

Roy played half of his career at the same time Brodeur was in the league so it's not like we're comparing guys who played 50 years apart...While it may be true that Brodeur had a stronger defensive corps...Roy never played on horrible defensive teams either...Chelios, Robinson, Blake, Ozolinsh and Bourque are not slouches. Although Brodeur's teams played a trap, shut down defensive style they also had very few consistent scorers to count on for a big goal when needed so i would argue that Brodeur had more pressure on him as far as letting in goals was concerned because unlike Roy, who had Sakic, Forsberg, Damphousse, Bellows, etc...he did not have a marquee offensive guy or guys to count on to light up the lamp to bail him out. So i would say that Brodeur had to stand on his head more often than Roy due to the consistent lack of offensive prowess on his teams. "The best defense is a good offense" is a motto that many people on this very forum have used as an agrument to diminish Chris Osgood's career credentials both in the playoffs and the regular season, so anyone who says good offensive players in front of a goalie is not a substantial enough benefit to the goalie to be considered a major deterrent when it comes to looking at a career as whole, had BETTER cut Ozzie the same slack and give him the praise that he has earned. As far as the Conn Smythe and playoffs is concerned it is a travesty that Brodeur was never given the Conn Smythe: - He has the 4th lowest GAA in Stanley Cup Finals history at a sparkling 1.87, and the lowest of the modern era, even lower than Roy's - In 1995 he went 16-4 and swept the heavily favored Wings in the Finals in only his 2nd season in the league. He led all playoff goalies in shots faced(so the defense wasn't airtight), GAA, save %, and shutouts posting numbers of 1.67, .927%, and 3, respectively - In 2000 he went 16-7 and once again led all playoff goalies In GAA, was 5th in save % and 3rd in shutouts with 1.61, .927% and 2, respectively - 2003 he got royally screwed out of the trophy, going 16-8 posting a 1.65 GAA, .934 save %, and posting an all-time NHL record 7 shutouts in the playoffs including another all time NHL record 3 in the Stanley Cup Finals....and yet it took his team 7 games to win the series (cue my point about having to carry his team)....and they gave the trophy to Jiggy from Anaheim who posted a 1.62, .945 save % and 5 shutouts...essentially the same numbers as Marty except in one category...2003 Cup titles -As far as playing in pressure packed playoff games, 10 of 24 of Brodeur's career Cup Finals games were decided by one goal...so he had very little margin for error a lot of the time he played in the finals. 2000 i could see not saying he was deserving but his 1995 and 2003 seasons on top of being two of the most impressive in playoff history, were MORE than deserving of a Conn Smythe

Several HOF defenseman? since when does Stevens and Niedermayer qualify as several? You know it's ironic that hockey fans always want to point out how Brodeur success had so much to do with the teams he had in front of him and all of these great players he was so fortunate to play behind...but when the subject turns to Patrick Roy all you hear about is how he was god's gift to goaltending, and you never hear anyone suggest that any of his success had anything to do with the players that he had in front of him....here's a comparison of the star players that each goalie played behind throughout the course of their careers : Brodeur: Scott Stevens, Bill Guerin, Bobby Holik, Claude Lemieux, Scott Neidermayer, Stephane Richer, Scott Gomez, Jason Arnott, Petr Sykora, Patrick Elias, Brian Rafalski, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brian Gionta, Zach Parise Roy: Chris Chelios, Brian Bellows, Vincent Damphousse Guy Carbonneau (3 selkes) Kirk Muller, Larry Robinson, Denis Savard, Mathieu Schneider,Stephane Richer, Milan Hejduk, Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, Claude Lemeiux, Sandis Ozolinsh, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake. ....Clearly Brodeur had more skilled players in front of him than Marty did and yet you never hear a word about it when it comes to Patrick

Flipper will put up 65-75 points and Jimmy Howard will post a winning percentage greater than .600, a GAA of 2.9 and a .910 save percentage for the Wings this year. Maltby will have less than 3 goals at Christmas and Eaves will have less than 5

Yes, i would entirely agree that he is past his prime and that as far as his skills are currently, he probably is overrated. However as far as his career as a whole is concerned then i would vehemently disagree about him being overrated....True, he did play in the golden age of goaltending with larger pads etc. but just because Wayne Gretzky played in the high scoring 80s doesn't mean he was any less brilliant...The "era they played in" argument can be used against players on the "fringe" of being considered great, ( Dino Ciccarelli is a perfect example: 16th all time in goals scored and has 64 more career goals the Rocket Richard...I love Dino as much as anyone but he should never be mentioned in the same breath as the Rocket...tell me playing in the 80s didn't help him out!) but it cannot be used against someone who was far and away the best goalie of his generation like Marty was/is.

I don't want to get all worked up and write a novel of a post telling you how wrong you are so i will just say that Martin Brodeur is one of the top 5 NHL goaltenders of all-time, period.

No I wasnt implying that Luongo was the reason that the Canucks lost, just that I have never watched Luongo play a game in the playoffs and came away thinking that he stole a game for his team or single handedly kept them in it....I have with Lundqvist.