Opie

LOL Holy F#$king brainfart! Thanks dude.

You and I are in full agreement here, careful watch out for that snowball in hell(LOL), I see the third line as Draper Cleary and X, whomever you or I or Eva see in that X is going to differ. But injuries aside it was pretty much Cleary Draper Drake all year, Sammy filled in nicely when Drake was out, which is what makes me think he is there this coming season. Actually Sammy put up his best numbers on that line. Granted he would be the 3rd best (Edit) defensive player on that line, but being called less of a defensive player than Draper is not exactly a slap in the face!

So lets say Bo ends up in Toronto, does this make Toronto more appealing to Sundin, or would they need to make a major move at Forward to entice him back? Thoughts? I am really not sure he wants to go back, but his heart strings have got to get tugged on a little when the only team he has ever played for (NHL) is getting better, make no mistake about it, adding Bo will help their D a lot more than McCabe would.

Oh I bet there are teams that if Det said who wants malts for a low draft pick or hey Malts is on waivers teams would be all over it, however no one is knocking down his door for Malts, and my statements are pure speculation. He could not be trading him because Babs wants to start him in the top 12. I would not take that donut bet, because as I said he would be a starter on most teams in the league, I was making a statement about him playing for this team, not the Pens, not the Sens, or the B's. Just he Wings and with the players the wings have and the all around game most of the forwards have, IMO the wings would be best served if he was not a starter. That does not mean he isn't already on Babs 3rd line, it just makes it my opinion, so whether or not Malts could be traded has nothing to do with the situation.

You and I are going to severely disagree on this, But I play sammy with Drapes and Cleary. I think you are severely underestimating Sammy's defensive ability. But he would provide a very solid line and I believe after last season that Cleary has plenty of chemistry with Draper.

EDIT: Please read my response to BRTD, the post just above the one you posted last, which may have been posted as you were writing this. BRTD and I have had difference of opinions in the past as well as GMR. However I have had a lot more with GMR. What usually happens is we go at it for a while, give up and leave with neither of us changing opinion, we are just hashing them out. I may have referred to the way GMR was posting but that was after the thread went to the s***ter (I am to blame as much as anyone). GMR and I have gone back and forth for many months about enforcers, players, and whatever else you want to bring up, we have distinctly different opinions of what the Wings should and shouldn't do. Having said that, I didn't start anything with him, THIS TIME, he responded to my post which I responded to him. IF you have a problem with the way I post towards you than let me know and I will gladly try to not post sarcastically towards you, but when GMR and I are going back and forth, well at least on my part, it is nothing personnel, I don't take his posts as attacking me. As far as not saying Malt shouldn't play, I have stated multiple times that my thoughts are based on whether or not he should play on this the 08-09 version of the Wings. My opinion is no, when I say that I am not saying his contributions in the past were junk and I am not even saying he couldn't play on another team. Hell I am not even saying he won't play for these Wings this year. Saying he should be in the press box, while it may not be clear, is saying he should be the 13th forward, odds are he will play this year IF he were to be the 13th forward. An injury could crop up, Babs could want to give a guy a rest, so Malts would be the logical choice as he would be the veteran guy who has a good defensive game and can give PKers a rest. If I have misspoken about stats or a player I will correct myself, I have done it in the past, and even in this thread I admitted my message was not clear. If you want to point out where my post was wrong or unclear I will gladly correct what I was trying to say, however if you want me to post differently towards GMR, that is none of your concern, if he doesn't like the way I post towards him he can speak up for himself, trust me he is a big boy and can handle himself with me. We have done this enough with each other for me to know that.

I guess my wording may be off, I was referring to the fact that Malts logged substantial PK time mainly due to injuries. For instance Drake was out of the line up for a while, Maltby was a great option to have as a back up. Again I am not saying Malts is a waste of roster space but that there are much better options. Malts was an option behind Drake, Draper, and Z, that fourth Killer was often times Dats or Mule or Maltby or Cleary. When injuries occurred Babs put his most experienced pker in there. When I said misleading I didn't mean in general I meant in reference to this situation, unfortunately I didn't type it very well. But lets try it again. In this situation PK ave time can be misleading because Malts picked up (deservedly so) the minutes that Drake would have handled. My point in this was that Malts in general has slipped, and the wings have players that are better suited to be on the ice instead of Malts. He would be a starter on most teams around the league, not saying he is washed up, saying on this roster the need for him is lessened and I feel it is better for the team if he were not a regular player because the players the wings have that can kill penalties (we can all pretty much agree he brings PK and Defense only) are also great defensive and very good offensive players, other than Z and D who are great at both ends(because I said very good I wanted to clarify that). One of the reasons I said press box not trade him, is the fact that injuries happen and having Malts as a 13th forward covers up many voids that could be left by an injury other than offense. One of the new things with this board is people arguing extremes, because I said he should be the 13th forward does not mean I hate him or that I think he is a horrible, it is just that I think the wings have better options than Maltby for the starting 12.

Yes because the demand for a 37 year old pk specialist with limited to no upside is in such a high demand Holland must have suitors lined up all over the place. Now you say loyalty, a little while ago it was his defensive ability, this is like the enforcer thing you go round and round, first it is necessary to win, then it isn't but you want it for entertainment, then it is pride. Do me a favor and make up your mind, then we can have a discussion about it, until you state your opinion about something and stick to it for more than 3 posts I am done!

This is the biggest problem with your posts, you sir don't pay attention OR have comprehension problems. When did I ever say I wanted him gone so badly, my original comment was that I thought the wings were best served with him in the press box, as I believe there are better options out there. You translate that to I want him gone badly just because he is Maltby. WHICH IS WRONG. I explained why I thought others were better options and I also stated my thoughts on Maltby and none of them were negative or bashing. You have this uncanny ability to take a person's post and twist their words all around to help your argument. I have nothing against him personally, I just think their are better options, the same way others think about Cheli.

What I didn't get about his post (GMR's) was that Malts contract was signed when the Wings weren't these wings. Mule was Johan Franzen, Cleary was a project, Z wasn't this defensively spectacular, Hossa was a thrasher, Dats was not this defensively spectacular, Drapes was a Free agent at the end of that year (could have hung them up not that he would have left) Robert Lang was on the roster (his name doesn't envoke visions of D-fense. So yeah Holland must have envisioned this roster when he signed Maltby to that 3 year deal!

I specifically said in my post I wasn't questioning the validity of his stats, but like GAA is a slightly misleading stat so can PK average time. Drake was lost for a chunk of the season as was Cleary. Maltby filled in admirably, and yes he is still a decent PK player, but the point remains he only provides PK ability. While the Wings have about 6 guys that IMO do it better than Malts: Z Dats Mule Draper Cleary Hossa Add to that the fact that the people who are being talked about to take his minutes (Sammy {I didn't bring his name into the mix}, Kopecky, Leino, Abdelkader, Downey, Mac whoever else would get fourth line minutes) provide something that Malts no longer can provide. OR they have potential to add scoring depth. I am not saying Malts should retire and never wear skates again, what I am saying is that on this Wings team IMO the best place for him is in the press box. The only reason this debate is happening is because GMR brought Sammy into the fray, which I took the bait and said what does Maltby do that the wings don't have in spades, and that there are things Sammy did that Malts hasn't done in years, score points. Maltby in the last three years is 2 points shy of what Sammy put up in his worst season as a wing. Yet he is cannon fodder while Malt lives on his past reputation as an elite PKer, which he is no longer and hasn't been since the lockout. He is a damn good pker, but not what he once was.

The problem with that is the exact reason Quincey is third, yes Maltby may have average three seconds less than Z but how many more shifts on the PK did Z take than Malts. For instance if Quincey has 5 shifts and they all came during the injury stretch he could have had 5 shifts in 2 games of a minute a piece, thus skewing his results. Not saying your point isn't valid but Quincey was a 7th d-man most of the season, because his average PK shift length happened to be longer doesn't mean he is a better or more used PKer. I am still looking for pk shifts stats but it is a little hard (unless you have a good site) because it appears it is not the best kept stat.

Captain of the 99 stars, first non Canadian born captain to hoist Lord Stanley's cup!

NFM made my points for me, Maltby while he provides things that Sammy cannot, the wings have that in spades. The wings have 6 guys that can kill penalties and skill wise are better than Maltby as well as better PKers at this point in time. However, as of last year, Sammy provided something the wings were lacking, secondary scoring. This year, I have stated this 8 million times, Sammy is trade-able because of Hossa and the emergence of Mule as a bona fide scoring threat. Having said that I would still prefer the following people (in no order) in the line up over Maltby due to skill or the fact they provide something Maltby doesn't (See #2) 1. Sammy 2. Downey (I know not on the roster yet) 3. Helm 4. Kopecky 5. Mac Hell I would rather see what Leino, Abdelkader have on the fourth line with Hudler and Helm/Kopecky rather than Maltby. The third and fourth lines will more than likely carry the following names Line 3: Draper - Cleary - Sammy Maybe Franzen Maybe Flip depends on how babs does his lines and if he gives Sammy minutes with Hossa. Line 4: Maltby - Huds - Helm/Kopecky (Downey or D-mac will be there time to time as well) Maltby adds defense to that line and nothing else, he may be the recipient of few nice plays and chip in on an assist here or there, but 10-20 points is the cap for him. And that line will need some form of a physical presence, which Kopecky can be a physical guy, however Helm's speed was great asset to that line in the post season. I was never talking about Maltby in the sense of just the post season, what I brought up was he hasn't been producing (points) in the regular season or the post season. And the defensive ability he brings the Wings have a ton of, which, unfortunately for him, is played by guys who also happen to be the best offensive guys on the team. First PK Z - Hossa- Lids- Stuart Second PK Draper - Cleary - Kronwall - Lilja That still leaves Dats and Mule as PK killers who I would rather have on the ice than Maltby. I cannot find it right now but I bet some one can find Malts PK minutes last year and I highly doubt they are anywhere near top 3. Last year Z-Draper-Drake where the top 3 then Mule, Dats, Maltby, Cleary all stepped in after that. I am not saying Maltby sucks and always has, I am saying the game is starting to pass him by, the difference between him and Cheli, is position. Cheli can play stay at home D and be defensively responsible, however you don't want your forward being a stay at home D-man while playing the wing!

I'll bite even though you were probably sarcastic. When was the last time Maltby put up numbers that even look close to Sammy's? When was the last time Maltby scored multiple points in a game, post season, let alone a post season game? Hell even better question, when was the last time Maltby was used as a regular PKer? Valid question as most of the people who come to his defense say he is a great PKer. That comparison was weak and holds no water, much like most of your enforcer posts on the Cheli-downey-dmac thread.

The one and only thing this guy looks comfortable doing is playing hockey! Other than that he looks completely nervous and like he would rather be on the ice than where ever he is!

...in the press box. Now let the castration begin!

I never said I don't want retribution, I never said I don't like fighting. What I did say was an enforcer stops nothing, so when people say having an enforcer will stop players from running the wings players I just want you to understand that an enforcer stops nothing. I have said in this thread and others, that Aaron Downey is the perfect FIGHTER for this team, the don't a player to go out and fight just to fight, Downey didn't so that once last year. This team wants a FIGHTER who will go out and defend a teammate if needed but also be happy only playing 40-60 games a year and get 4-6 minutes a game, without being a cancer in the room. Downey, from what I read from teammates, is a great teammate. The wings as a team have a philosophy when it comes to enforcing and fighting, that is not going to change any time soon. The "pro-enforcer" crowd needs to understand that, the wings will not ice a fighter or enforcer every game, it is the team philosophy. Those of us who understand that and try to point in out get labeled as "Anti Enforcer" which in all actuality we are realists. If you want this team to carry a heavyweight who will go out and register 20 fights a year you need a small dose of reality. The Wings of this era will not carry a full time enforcer, and they have proven themselves to be very successful in doing so.

Did you read the Condom - Enforcers analogy in the Chelios, Downey, Mac thread, that is by far the funniest thing ever!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=AoCS...p&type=lgns Is he really durable enough for $1.6 mil, I mean really 2 nhl seasons one cut down to 58 games the other cut down to 15, that is a lot of money for a guy who has played a total of 91 nhl games in 3 seasons (one was a call up but he still played more games that season than last season).

Not really because in his logic he is using PLAYOFF teams and results, if you are going be using regular season who beat who it would be a conundrum or as we call it in the SQL world a Cartesian product, where some one beat the Hawks and some other team beat the team that beat the Hawks and some other team beat that team and so on and so on and so on.

Hey now listen if you are going to use the LGW trademarked phrase you must use the © at least!

Best post on this board EVER!!!!!!!!!

I never said they didn't help, you are taking my statement/analogy way out of context. Would you please read the thread or my whole post, all I said was that like law enforcement officers, hockey enforcers are not going to stop certain people's actions! That was spelled out in the first thread when I said that certain players will think a punch in the face is enough to deter them, however they are not the people that we are talking about right now. What we are talking about is the fact that having any enforcer is not going to stop Chris Simon, Steve Downie, or Jessie Boulerice. I didn't say that having an enforcer doesn't stop Joe Sakic from being a cheapshot artist. You are trying to apply my analogy across a broad spectrum when in the first post I said IT WON'T STOP A CRIMINAL, Which is proven by the fact that we have law enforcement and still have career criminals and people who end up needing a 3 strikes law. What is so difficult to understand about that, did any of you take the SATs and know what an anology is? I never said get rid of enforcers or cops because they do no good, I said there are certain people that they will not deter from doing what they want! Ok enough of that crap, give me a specific example, like I did with Lappy, that says not having an enforcer in the line up allowed some one to get cheapshotted in a way that impacted the game or prevented the Wings from winning the cup? Lets look at the last 3 playoff years Last season, well what is there to say! 06-07, Calgary resorted to spearing players with their back up netminder, who was lost for the playoffs due to that? If I remember correctly even in the ANA series, Homer came back from the dirty hit the next period, so how did the rough tough stuff stop the wings, because homer scored a point in that game after coming back. 05-06, What team beat the wings out of the playoffs other than the Wings themselves? Did the Oil beat the wings up? You are putting me in this "anti-enforcer" mold instead of reading what I am writing, I am all for the Wings carrying a fighter to get retribution, I just was clarifying that an enforcer will not stop certain players from doing what they want! Does it stop a guy like Ott in Dallas yes because he does not play the malicious game, he like Drake before him played on the edge of clean and dirty, it may prevent them from taking a run in a game where a big time enforcer is in the line up and it may allow Drake to take a run a Lebda (there I came up with one incident in the last 3 years ) because the Wings dress no one, but what did the loss of Lebda hurt. Much like a cop prevents you or I from robbing a bank, but it doesn't stop some people, hence why there are still bank robberies! And to your rebuttal of what if that is Lids? Well honestly, that hit doesn't happen against Lids, Ralf, Stuart, Dats, Z, Hossa and others because Lebda was behind the net checking his skate laces and not looking for Drake.

27 games played in 05-06 68 games played in 06-07 that is a trend in the opposite direction.