Opie

Oh I agree, I also thought paying Kronwall was a risk signing and until this post season almost everyone else was worried about the same thing. The difference in the two situations is we have knowledge of a healthy Kronwall for a whole season. I also knew more about Kronner's injuries than I do Clowe. But what happens if you pay the guy 1.6 and instead of missing 25 he plays 25. Or the 15 he played last season, if he turns into Martin Havlat is he still worth it, well in this case yes because it is only a one year deal. I am not saying it is a bad move I just question giving the guy a 1$mil raise when his games played goes down, where as Kronwall had one year of 27 games but the next season with the Wings he played 68. So it is not really a true comparison because Clowe's situation is he got hurt after playing about 2/3 of the season and then got hurt before the 1/4 mark. I question the orgs thinking more than I do the value of a healthy Ryane Clowe.

Honestly at this time you would think that we (as wings fans) would get used to this phenomenon but every time I see a Wing's player being highly touted and he was drafted 5th round or later I still go "Wow how did the wings get this guy!" Is there anyone out there who is used to this yet, I mean I know we kind of expect it or the org but it still surprises me every time!

GMR, Can we reach another agreement that fighting back and standing up to or for is a different set of criteria? In my mind when you say fight back I think fists and blood, as opposed to I see standing up for each other or yourself is what the wings do. Defend yourself/teammate in a scrum. But very rarely do they actually fight another person, that is why I think Downey fits this team perfectly, he doesn't have to be out there every night, yet when he is there he does his job and does what he and the coach (more importantly, for instance you wouldn't want him going Downie on people) want/need him to do. IE: Lappy!

I would say late bloomer is a bit of an understatement considering he was drafted DEAD LAST!!!!!

I am just saying he is getting a $1mil raise and has yet to prove he can play a full NHL season. 58gp in 06-07 15gp in 07-08 I'll give you I would take him healthy any day of the week in a Wing's Uni, however if he is healthy as often as Martin Havlat it will be an overpayment. But in the market today really what is 1.6 million, I guess if I am comparing Sammy at 1.2 mil and full seasons without injury under his belt I would take that. But a healthy Clowe at 1.6 mil wins over Sammy every time, but health concerns can become career long problems. And if a banger and grinder is injury prone doesn't that change his style of play?

BTW because you don't like my take on the subject at hand doesn't mean I am anti-enforcer. I have stated on this board many times since the end of the playoffs Downey is the perfect fighter for this team. My disagreement in this thread is that, pay attention you may have missed it by only reading half of my posts, that enforces deter nothing, they get you retribution. Which I have no problem with, but this board (ask GMR) has been round and round about what exactly will stop a guy like Steve Downie from doing what he does (he has done it in multiple leagues), the answer: nothing, if being kicked out of the league wasn't enough deterrent what makes you think a punch or 10 to the head is going to change his mind!

You my friend apparently don't play enough NHL '08!

I didn't make s*** up, Downey was in the lineup when Lappy hit Lids, what did his being in the lineup stop. There I didn't make s*** up and he didn't stop s***. My point in the cop analogy is that there are people out there that will commit a crime even when law enforcement (see the similarity there) is in place and may even be in the same location the crime is committed. For example I speed all of the time, I usually drive about 10mph over the posted limit, I know that means a fine, I know that if I get enough speeding tickets I lose my license, does it stop me from speeding no. Just like Downey didn't stop Lappy. Please point to me where I said law enforcement or enforcers in hockey were useless, what I said was they won't stop certain people's behavior regardless of the consequences, hence the reason there are full prisons all over America, because law enforcement isn't enough to stop people from doing illegal actions, it just punishes them after the fact, much like an enforcer on the ice!!

So because we have cops we also have 0 crime! good logic there. I said cops don't stop criminals not Cops don't stop people from committing crimes, read the whole sentence not the part that you find inflammatory! What my analogy points out is that people who are going to break the law will break it regardless of cops, much like if some one really wants to two hand a guy across the face being punch in the face is not a Deterrent!!

A concussion for every shift in the NHL is slightly different than not living up to expectations. Comparison = Fail

Absolutely nothing at all!!!!!!!! But the point you and I agreed along time ago about the prevention thing, some one else posted that an enforcer would stop things altogether. That was what that reply was aimed at, not so much your statements What about the Calgary series or SJ from the playoffs before last, you bring up two games from that year where the team got beat up, I can bring up 2 series against one of the teams you brought up in which the Wings held their own very well even when Calgary resulted to cheapshots and back up goalies spearing people. And I didn't say anything before because you and I have gone round and round with this, but there was more to the loss against ANA than just them being more physical. Including but not limited to injuries, PP ineffectiveness, and sloppy bad turnovers, mind you the pp was down 1 point men from each unit and the defender that created the turnover is probably not on the ice if either Schieds or Kronwall were healthy. That however is speculation, the only fact you and I have about this conversation is that the Ducks won and the Wings lost. But your post makes it look like you think the injury issues were hogwash and that the toughness of ANA is what won them that series. BTW: Malone running Z, what did that do to him, he won Conn Smythe, I don't recall hearing a thing about him having any ailments or nagging injuries. He owned the Pens offensively and Defensively, so Malone was running Z in the finals, what good did it do Pit, did it help them beat the wings, answer a resounding NO!!!

I wouldn't hold your breath!

:clap: :clap: :clap: If there was an emoticon of a standing ovation you would have just received one, as it is I hope the standing 'O' you just got in my cube was enough!!! EDIT: Oh and watch out for the "well he breaks the goalie's crest too, explain that!" or whatever other reason people can drum up to whip the official whipping boy some more.

Snepts my man/woman, I have been looking for that quote to post in this thread for a day now and couldn't find it, you sir (or madam) are the Man (or Woman)! Pretty sure you are a guy, but in this world gone politically correct mad I had to cover all bases!!!

Thanks for making my point, Downey was in the lineup and it stopped what exactly? NOTHING! Lappy still hit (imo a clean hit) Lids hard and a little high (maybe), McLaren still went after Z, the enforcer stops nothing, much like cops don't stop criminals. They deal out punishment for actions. Some players may not take a run at a guy in fear of getting their teeth knocked in, but those guys usually aren't the ones dealing out cheap/dirty hits.

Just to let you know having an enforcer stops nothing, if a guy is going to take a run at or cheapshot Hank, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the player will take the run/cheapshot and then fight. An enforcer may get retribution for you, but what is going to stop Kyle Maclaren from running at Z if he wants to? Downey, Mac, Downie, Neil, who? I know the answer, no one will. If a guy is willing to cheapshot or take a run at another player, odds are he has done it before and knows that the consequence is getting into a fight or getting hit hard. That won't stop these guys. BTW: When was the last time a Red Wing player was run, or the last time you remember some one taking a cheap shot at a Red Wing player?

Goalies, mentally, are a different breed. Part of his make up as a person is his mental approach to situations, if he is going to change his mental make up, I wonder if he can be the same goalie. A big part of netminding is confidence, if his ego is broken because of this experience does that impact his game more than it did a forward like Cleary? Who knows?

So its funny???????

I second the "That's f***ed up" notion!!

I am torn on this a little bit, either way he is a good hitter, but his hits are Stevens-esque in the fact that they leave you wondering if it was in fact a legal hit. I watch and from some angles it looks like he leaves his feet, sometimes it looks like the clash of momentum takes him off of his feet. Either way I love watching him hit, I just would have a hard time defending his hits to others, because in my mind they are border line.

What is LGR, did you mean LGW? Due to cap restrictions, yes everyone's opinion is that Ericsson will be in GR. However what people are saying is that the moves could be made to make room for him because the coaches and staff have said that he is NHL ready. However he is one of two defenseman with the ability to go up and down without clearing waivers. There is a lot more to him being with the big club than just talent level. As far as Lilja and Lebda they are trade able because they are experienced D-men on a Stanley Cup champion team. Lebda and Lilja would be upgrades on teams like Bos, Mon, Fla, Pit, and would definitely help out teams like Pho, LA, and others. It is not that I am saying they are useless they just happen to be the most trade able commodities. Neither Lebda nor Lilja have a chance in hell of cracking this top 4, however in Tampa they would be top 4 easily. The league knows Detroit is against the cap and has a bunch of NHL ready (or experienced) defenseman that at least one will need to be dealt (odds are). Do you really see Quincey or Meech garnering that much attention from other teams. No one, at least from what I read, is saying the Wings HAVE TO or NEED to move Lilja or Lebda they are just saying it would make sense to trade Lilja and Lebda because of what has been said about Ericsson. Seeing as the thread was started about Bowman thinking Ericsson is ready and that it is general knowledge that to sign another forward or D-man(Cheli only) one or more D-men will probably be traded. So some of us draw the conclussion that trading one of the L's would make room for the other forward and also bring up a highly touted Defensive prospect, who for all accounts is NHL ready. And it is not like anyone is saying Ericsson will get top 4 minutes this year, but he is a top 4 potential 24 year old d-man while: Lilja 32 year old top 6 (at best top 4 on a bad defensive team). Lebda 26 year old with top 6 potential. I, for one, am not discounting what they did this past year, but in a cap world these guys are expendable because this team has the best top 4 in the league, and it costs them a lot less than it should, they have the ability to play around with the 5-6 pairings to figure out what Ericsson, Kindl, Meech, Quincey can do, plus they have the veteran Cheli to fall back on, who was a damn fine 5-6 last year.

The only reason people here are drooling over him is because names like Babcock, Bowman, Holland, and Yzerman are big on this kid. If those guys are big on him I respect their opinion and knowledge a little bit more than your non-drooling 2-3 years out philosophy, so when they say, or more specifically when babs says he could have been a starter for them last year I tend to get pretty excited about a kid with size and skill that the NHL coach (who I wager knows more about him than say, an internet poster) is ready for him to crack his #1 in the league defensive roster, I may drool once in a while!

This reminds me of a Dana Carvey stand up where he talks about hanging out with Paul McCartney and he says something to the affect of he doesn't condone smoking pot but when a Beatle hands you a joint you toke, you toke away!!! That would be my take on it too, who am I to sit behind my keyboard and tell them who can and cannot touch the cup!

RE:bolded part. Biggest reason he won't be a top 4 for at least 3 years. It will take that long for an opening and there is no way Detroit trades him if he is that good. Maybe they entice him with PP time or something but this kid has 4 solid top 4 guys in front of him for at least 2 more years and I assume Lids will do a couple of 1-2 year stints after this contract. Kronwall, Ralf, Stuart are all ahead of him on the depth chart and unless he is an amazing defenseman I see no way he beats out those 3 and that doesn't include Lids in the list.

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