Opie

Most athletes will tell you, that if you are getting booed or jeered in an away ballpark/arena it means you are probably doing very well.

Thanks

Umm do you mean when he punched Gary Roberts?

Sorry for misunderstanding your point, I was thinking you were saying something different than you were, DAMN INTERNETS!!! Wait I take that back I love you internet!

There are two factors, well really one but with two different circumstances that might hurt you. Supporting cast: Hossa has a much better supporting cast around him, that could provide more opportunities or take them away. Iginla who has a lesser supporting cast, will have to score more for his team to be effective, but at the same time he is passing to lesser talent. I think overall it is a safe bet, because Iginla is pretty much a one man show, where as Hossa is part of a trio.

Pure Brilliance!

So it sounds like you have seen the guy play, what is his style like, power forward, dangler, set up guy. What can you offer for info to a guy who has never seen this kid skate?

So economic factors can't be the sole reason, but lack of fighting can be a major cause. Listen, I love a good fight and if the team were horrible, yes fighting would give people a reason to go to games. But this team is a perennial power house that wins all the time. Were there attendance issues in the Bowman era, when the wings were still near the bottom of the league every year for fighting? Plus the Lower bowl is also mostly corporate, if I am mistaken about this please correct me, the blue collar fair-weather fan was also probably turned off by the lockout as well as the fall of the economy, which coincidentally happened at about the same time. The "Pro-fighting" crowd over values fighting, and the "anti-fighting" crowd undervalues it, however just because the Wings were to sign an enforcer that is not going to fill the seats that are now over $185, if memory serves correct. Signing Hossa isn't going to fill the seats, but signing a NA forward who does nothing but fight will? I just don't see that happening.

I wasn't going to derail, but seeing as the train is already off of the track. WARNING: The following rant is laced with my opinion, if my opinion bothers anyone I apologize in advance, but this is my take on the subject at hand! I stand by these numbers: Feds: 1196gp 472 674 1146 (Not a ppg player) Jagr: 1273gp 646 953 1599 (well over a ppg player) Jagr is a stone cold first ballot HOF lock, Feds if he is able to return to form could hit 500 goals this year and maybe 1200 points, those are not HOF numbers let alone first ballot numbers. (BTW I choose to compare him to Jagr due to the fact they started in the NHL the same year, and he is a first ballot HOFer.) There are players with 500-600 goals who are not in the HOF. And yeah sure Cam Neely is in the HOF, IMO doesn't belong and I am a huge Cam fan, the HOF should be for those who were far an away one of the best players (not talent) in the league for a long consistent period of time. He may have been top 10 in the league for a couple of seasons, but he has had more meh seasons than great seasons. Look at Yzerman's stats, again stone cold lock first ballot HOF: 1514 692 1063 1755 Shanny: 1490 650 690 1340 (Not a ppg player but 650 goals will get him in) Shanny is another stone cold lock for the hall. TO ME, Feds numbers just don't add up to HOF, and that has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man, the myth, the player. I don't blame him for wanting to go after the year Holland took off of the table, but his less than stellar work ethic is the only thing I have against him. While Feds had some great years with Detroit, phenomenal years (2 to be exact) he didn't continue it outside of Detroit, which at the time was being accused of paying for all star teams (not his fault, but a factor in voting) then he leaves Detroit and never really has another season like the ones he had in Detroit. He had 2 years over 100 points, 3 years with 80-87 points, 7 years between 60-79, 4 years under 60 points. Lets not all act like he had a bunch of 100 point years and another 6-8 years of 90 points, like say Jagr. Think about the lines he played on, the Russian 5, Shanny - Yzerman - Feds, on that last line he is the 3rd best player. IMO he is not a stone cold lock for the Hall, let alone first ballot lock. However I will contend that if Neely can make the Hall a lot more players should be in the Hall.

I defended my position on this with numbers in another huge thread so I won't do it again, and derail yet another thread. But there are some legit reasons to not consider him HOF worthy starting with his Goal total and moving from there. EDIT: Clarification, one of the major criteria (or at least assumed criteria) for wings to put a jersey in the rafters is HOF.

I wasn't trying to downplay Clark's importance I was trying to draw a Red Wing Reference, but I was not going to say he is their Yzerman, I was more referring to the fact that he was a very very important Leaf, I was obviously not as aware of this fact as say oh I don't know, a Leaf fan. Either way I agree 100% with what you posted above.

Dude, You said name one person, you didn't say name one person not Gretzky or Lemieux, just like your definition of Always has changed 15 times, you wanted one always good playoff performer, and I brought up Lemieux which you conveniently ignored, that is two people who have always performed in the playoffs, now we can trash your use of the word always. Stop back pedaling and admit you were wrong, others have done it and none of them died because of it!

Seriously?! I understand this is a depth move, but why? http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=Apqp...p&type=lgns

Hey Dallas27, Do me a favor, this offseason you put Hossa in your avatar and look what happened, in 09-10 can you put Howard in your Avatar so he gets the starter role? PLEASE!?!?!?!?!

OK what did you put in my coffee, I actually agree with you again! Wendl Clark was a heart and soul Maple Leaf, not the best not the worst, my best comparison would be Draper, and IMO the only thing keeping Draper's number out of the rafters is the stringent conditions that Detroit puts on raising numbers.

Dump, I hope you were being serious, sometimes hard to tell on the internets, but I try to have civil debates as often as possible, but like everyone else I have good days and bad days!!!! But the difference of opinion of why they lost to Ana is just that, the only hardcore concrete fact that either of us have is that the wings lost. Other than that it is how you see it and how I see it. I see your join date is recent (not a shot at you please don't take it as such) so you wouldn't have gotten into a lot of conversations with me, I have been on this board since 00-01 I think, I tend to be civil and post my opinion and defend my opinion, once in a while, whether I am having a bad day or the topic is something I feel strongly about, I can be a real big ASSHAT!!!! EDIT: BTW for time 501: Downey's ability to stay out of the box and still seek retribution when needed, plus you add in the fact that I didn't hear one iota of a complaint from him about only playing 56 games, makes him the best fighter candidate on this team! I feel I should state this because last offseason I was the biggest non Downey guy on this board. Things change a lot when you get to see someone more often and perspective is a wonderful thing!!

s*** the season hasn't even started yet and he has to be the far and away leader for this year as well!!!

Really, I seem to remember a Dats needs to step up thread from the start of last season in which a lot of people where questioning him. I am not saying I was, however the thought existed, and that was my point. Hold on a minute I am searching the board for the thread however it is pretty deep and will take me a minute or two. EDIT: OK so it wasn't a thread about it, there were 3 or 4 threads about Dats numbers, contract, getting the 'A' and he and Z in the playoffs, all of which had posts in them questioning his ability, with some people stating that one year did not make him a guarantee in the post season going forward. There was even a thread in which some posters insinuated that Dats numbers were sagging because he was playing with Z. I am not saying these are my theories I stated my theory before, I would like to see it one more year, once is luck, twice is skill, three times makes it so (or however that saying goes). My answer to the question was some people were saying he was such. 2nd Edit: I can't believe I am still searching for this, this is the same board that had posters claiming lids should be stripped of his captaincy and you don't believe that some posters may have claimed Dats was overrated or not performing as high as people wanted him!!!!!!!

No one called Dats overrated, but as recently as last offseason on this very board he was called that as well as a playoff bust. I wouldn't personally call dats overrated, Z either, but in the past they didn't perform in the playoffs at the same level they did the regular season. I wouldn't call either of them Playoff studs yet, as I would like to see some one have a string of playoffs (3-5) that were very successful and at a level around a ppg. But that is me, overrated, busts, underrated are all subjective and based on what my expectations of them are/were.

WOW!!! Good to see you have a mind like an elephant, hold grudges much. The only reason I see the cap not continually going up is the fact that the American dollar (in which the players are paid in) is at a low, the Loony (which supplies over 33% of the league income) is very strong. If the two change places it will impact the cap, and more than likely make it go down. But if you read my last post, I have a feeling you will look like the Asshat (my normal role) in this one. I was actually quite civil, I usually am, until given a reason (unlike your above edit)!

Good point, didn't really think of it that way, but in the two years before last (granted he isn't a 10 year vet or anything so he was/is developing) he played full seasons and got 53 with the ducks and 28 with the Oil, granted the Oil are not exactly an offensive juggernaut. Interesting thing about Lupul 4th year in the NHL 3rd team. I think in the end this will be a good deal for them, I have got to assume based on strong Loony and weak Dollar that the cap will keep going up and in about 2 years this will look like Dats deal, CHEAP!

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, however there is a big difference between leaving to go to play with the best in the world and leaving to go get paid more. I don't blame a guy who is going to be a career 4th liner/ahler for going to get paid more to play more minutes than he would in the nhl, he will pretty much be playing in the AHL but making more money.

I have got to tell you they have some real decent talent here in Manch-Vegas (Manchester NH) it may not be all world talent like Kopitar but, they have some young secondary type players developing in Manch.

And if he had signed in Tampa where they are all offense all the time, I would have said well maybe you are right and he could have a couple of good seasons surrounded by offense first, but NJ Devils. BTW I am still not sold on Franzen, I know that is an unpopular opinion around here, but I have seen a couple of great months from him, but I would like to see it for a season. (Let the castration begin!)

I contend that in the 06-07 playoffs the Wings were manhandled by NO ONE!!!!!! Did they lose to a tough physical Ducks team, without a doubt they did, they were beaten by the Ducks. However; I contend that injuries cost them more than the physicality of any team cost the wings. The Flames, The Sharks, The Ducks That is a Damn tough playoff road, especially when the first round opponent has their backup in slashing away at players. However, IMO, what killed the Wings was that 2 of the top 4 D-men and 2 PP QB's were out of the line up. I believe this translated to the horrible PP the wings had down the stretch and thus led to the loss to the Ducks, seeing as the wings went 0- for on 2 5-3's! And even more so when you figure that Schneids slapper set up a lot for that first pp unit.