Opie

Oh and I have no problem what so ever with your list, I just wanted to justify my position. I borrowed the structure directly from you, I even cut and pasted it, then changed the names I wanted.

Who is arguing that, it is the same conversation that happens about plenty of players who are great, they are in the conversation with other greats. For instance no one says, well Zetterberg is not that good because they consider AO a better player. You are interpreting that people are arguing he is not that good, when in fact the conversation was about whether or not he was a playoff bust or not, which I stand corrected he is not a playoff bust. The discussion went to whether or not he was always a good player in the playoffs. Where in that conversation did anyone of us say he is not that good?

egroen, You and I will disagree on the top 10 a little bit (which is fine not arguing just backing up my other statement) 1) Ovechkin 2) Crosby 3) Thornton 4) Zetterberg 5) Datsyuk 6) Iginla 7) Malkin 8) LeCavalier 9) Heatley 10) Kovalchuk Now after this year that list could look miles different but that is to be said with any top 10 list for any sport where we are talking current players.

Can I ask you were anyone said they didn't want him on the team, or where anyone was suggesting that there was a better player available. No one even said he wouldn't be great on this team, we were discussing his past, you know as in what happened before now, none of use were discussing the future, the things yet to happen. I made a comment (that was wrong at the time) that contradicted someone's opinion, then some of us debated that topic. What exactly did your last comment add to the previous discussion or the one we were having? You don't like the direction of the conversation, oh well, it wasn't like the other day when I derailed a thread with insults (sorry about that BTW), this was a hockey discussion about the player the thread was made about. Where is the problem, it lies in the fact you don't like the fact that we were talking negatively about a player on the roster, who happens to be an all world talent which none of us Denied. Again, where is the problem?

But you want certain names to do it, because when Dats came to the defense of a player getting run it was not good enough. The problem I have is that you state you want some players who will stick up for each other when the going gets tough, that insinuates that the players the wings have now won't stick up for each other. I have no problem with you wanting Downey on the roster, I have already stated my opinion on that 500 times, but you start a thread like this in which you make it appear as though there is no reason for anyone else to like Hudler because you don't like that style. If you start a thread like this, what did you expect from people, everyone to have a eureka moment and say holy s***, Dump and Thump was right, Hudler is wasting a roster spot that could be taken up by a fighter!

That my friend is a massive IF! He hasn't played 60 a season games since the lockout! EDIT: Wow, 18 gp followed by 56gp followed by 35 this past season. I never thought I would say this, this guy is softer than JD Drew!

I did reconcile the Kovi Hossa linemate issue, but it was in the thread I posted, I assume, after you started this post. The word always exists outside of Hockey, it is a constant, hell it is almost the exact definition of the word constant. Now your stance is he is always a playoff performer based on the fact that no one has a great playoff year every year that they are in the playoffs so therefore the word always actually means 3 out of 8 years. And here is a name for you: Mario Lemieux in 8 playoff seasons he never managed less points then games played. EDIT: Damn, in 00-01 he only put up 17 pts in 18 games, oh well that is still good in my book just disproves my theory of never less than ppg. In 107 games 76g 96a 172pts Therefore he was ALWAYS a good playoff performer. Good enough for you or should I go beyond the 2nd name I looked up? Am I free to trash your Always remark now?

Thank you very much, I thought the SO IF at the start of that sentence made it clear.

Instead of looking at just the 06-07 numbers that helped your point Eva lets look at their careers: Including playoffs Kovi: 2001-02 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 65 29 22 51 28 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 81 38 29 67 57 -- -- -- -- -- 2003-04 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 81 41 46 87 63 -- -- -- -- -- 2005-06 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 78 52 46 98 68 -- -- -- -- -- 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82 42 34 76 66 4 1 1 2 19 2007-08 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 79 52 35 87 52 -- -- -- -- -- NHL Totals 466 254 212 466 334 4 1 1 2 19 Including playoffs Hossa: 1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 7 0 1 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- 1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 60 15 15 30 37 4 0 2 2 4 1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 29 27 56 32 6 0 0 0 2 2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 32 43 75 44 4 1 1 2 4 2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 31 35 66 50 12 4 6 10 2 2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 45 35 80 34 18 5 11 16 6 2003-04 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 36 46 82 46 7 3 1 4 0 2005-06 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 80 39 53 92 67 -- -- -- -- -- 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82 43 57 100 49 4 0 1 1 6 2007-08 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 60 26 30 56 30 -- -- -- -- -- 2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL 12 3 7 10 6 20 12 14 26 12 NHL Totals 701 299 349 648 395 75 25 36 61 36 Kovi is exactly a PPG player where as Hossa is below a ppg and in 235 less games Kovi has 45 less goals and 137 assists less (that is a huge gap btw, not saying that proves my point just pointing out their differences) Add to that Kovi has played with the Thrash for his career, that can't help. EDIT: I will say that Kovi may have been a bad example because they were not on the same line, I was unaware of that point, I was sure that after Savard left Kovi and Hossa were together.

Wait weren't we talking postseason, what in the hell does regular season stats have to do with the post season, oh that is right they don't unless eva is trying to prove a point! You really don't think Kovalchuk is on par with Hossa's ability, you really think those ppg stats that show an iota of difference between them means that Kovalchuck is not an equal hockey player? Seriously dude, people bring up Kovi in top 10 players in the game, how often do you hear Hossa's name brought up in that conversation. OHH my god they have a .03 difference in their ppg %, wow they must be no where near each other in talent, especially in 06-07 when Kovi put up 2 in four games while Hossa put up 1 in 4 games. You are arguing completely different points then you started arguing, you have turned into a poster who can never admit he is wrong, you throw out whatever stat tickles your fancy that day and you think proves your point. You originally said: HOSSA IS ALWAYS A GOOD PLAYOFF PERFORMER Now you are offering excuses and different points to try and make your point, admit you were wrong and say he has had great seasons and bad seasons, I admitted I was wrong in saying he was a playoff bust, right after you pointed out his good seasons. Why is it so hard for you to say, holy s*** I was wrong once, Hossa hasn't always been a good playoff performer. Instead you "slightly alter" your statement, from what it is above to : He is always at or near the top of his team in scoring. Well great but that is not a slight alteration that is a huge difference. You were wrong admit it.

UMMM Kovalchuk?

I already stated that I was wrong calling him a playoff bust, so your point would be what again?

OK just asking because your previous statement made it seem like winning was pointless to you.

Before you plan on that you should know that last year or the year before, can't remember now, the owners put up a big ass Budweiser sign and other ads to block the views from rooftops! I remember reading about it a while ago, I will look for a link, otherwise I may be on the rooftop next to yours!! Sorry apparently it was all just talk! BUT they charge to sit on the rooftops, 150$ per game for a baseball game, I got to imagine they will charge more for the WC!

Because his team may have had bad playoffs that doesn't make his numbers better, he still went 0 for 6 games one year if the rest of his team had 0 points and 1 player had 2 unassisted goals that doesn't mean he had a good playoff because he was second on his team in scoring. You said he was always a good playoff performer, just because he was surrounded by people not putting up numbers that doesn't make his numbers good, that just makes him a victim, but a victim with less than good numbers in the playoffs. 06-07 he put up 1 assist in 4 games, yes they got swept, yes no one on that team should up against the rags, that still doesn't make 1 point in 4 games good numbers.

So if the Wings sucked, yet fought 3 times a game you would not complain at all? Better yet, when you cheer for the team what are you cheering for them to win or to get into a fight? If you are at a Wings game do you clap when they score, do you cheer when they win, or do you walk away with your head hung saying, man they didn't fight?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=28407 Always been a good playoff performer? Like the years with 2 points in 4 games or 0 in 6 or 1 in 4. Using a constant like always will almost certainly get you into trouble, but in his 8 post seasons he has had 3 years where he put up double digit point totals, including last year which was far and away his best year, 26 points in 20 games also the only season where he was a PPG. Maybe you and I have different definitions of good playoffs Year____ Team__________ GP__G___A__PTS__PIM 1998-99 Ottawa Senators 4 0 2 2 4 1999-00 Ottawa Senators 6 0 0 0 2 2000-01 Ottawa Senators 4 1 1 2 4 2001-02 Ottawa Senators 12 4 6 10 2 2002-03 Ottawa Senators 18 5 11 16 6 2003-04 Ottawa Senators 7 3 1 4 0 2006-07 Atlanta Thrashers 4 0 1 1 6 2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins 20 12 14 26 12 Those stats don't scream at me this guys is ALWAYS good in the playoffs. I do however stand corrected he has had a few good years mixed in, but to say he has always been a good playoff performer is a bit of a reach.

I am unable to make the trip but would like to thank you for offering up the experience and the deal to the wings fan base!!!!!!!

Not sure I am willing to say that yet, before last season Hossa was in that Playoff performer bust category, could have been playing with Sid made him that much better, who knows. And I am pretty sure Vinny has had a couple of decent years in the post season. I am super stoked he is on the wings don't get me wrong, but not so sure I believe he is a better Playoff performer than Thornton YET, plus I would like to see Thornton on a team in the post season that doesn't have Ron "A good day to Die" Wilson behind the Bench, Joe T has been a ppg playoff guy, it is not his fault his team averages 11 games a post season. Another thing with Joe T, who has he had to help out on the 1st line, Cheechoo, Michalek? yeah that compares well to Datsyuk Zetterberg or Crosby Hossa or others. No matter where Joe T has gone he has not had top tier talent on his wing, sure he had Samsonov for a couple of years, but can you imagine him with a guy like Hossa, Malkin, Zetterberg, Kovalchuk?

I don't think anyone was arguing he didn't have talent, but everyone's talent has a cap, for some people it is being great in Bantems, others it is college or juniors, some cases it is as an NHL 3rd liner and some players have elite NHL talent. Fedor looks to be a guy who should realize he is destined to be a star in the Russian league and stay there. I know he has dreams and I am not faulting him for chasing them, but the Devils, a defense first system, ugh! The guy is a 1000000 times better hockey player than I could ever fathom being, however every time he has been on an NHL roster he just can't perform up to expectations. He got about as much ice time as Hudler gets, Hudler is working to get more minutes, and his size is a detriment to him, if Fedor was really NHL talent, he would have stuck some where by now. EDIT: Huds does get a hell of a lot more PP time than Fedor got or will get, that does skew the numbers a little in his favor.

I think it is sort of like the trade deadline theory, if you aren't planning on being really good why strap yourself financially when you are going to perhaps have to drop that talent when you suck. Not my favorite theory but that is the thought I get, some owners like in Nashville in the past just spend enough to make the salary cap minimum and are happy to just be there.

Decent contract compared to what happened this summer, normal summer I say this is an overpayment. This guy should be making Sammy money as he puts up Sammy numbers, however again this summer, plus he is younger, has more upside. I just don't think paying a 45 point guy 4 mil a year is a good idea, I mean he is making Feds money, Feds has at least been a superstar, Lupul is a hope to be, he should be making 2.5-3 at most IMO, due to his youth and potential. But like I said, love redundancy, this summer everyone was overpaid.

Dude, Holland just signed Hossa, that is damn close to sitting on the beach and all of the sudden you see some dude walking on water, you have got to assume that guy is Jesus, if not must be god, right? I am not saying don't knock him, just that his tone did change after being, like you said, very much anti Holland. I bashed on the guy a lot so I thought I would speak up in defense of him, no offense meant towards you! EDIT: oh BTW what I wanted to add to the thread was I was reading the Puckdaddy blog on Yahoo and his response to Detroit signing McCrimmon:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Cooperalls!!!!! It seems like every off season there is some horrible Cooperall reference!!!!

What no one can admit they made a mistake or a rash judgment, I mean I may change my opinion too if a guy I thought was a bum (not putting words in your mouth leftwinger) then made a key signing to win my favorite team the cup (Stuart) and then made the biggest free agent splash in years the next season. That is unheard of in professional sports today, usually a team dismantles or just doesn't make that many improvements. BTW: I was all over Leftwinger for the red wings card comment, but dude has definitely made amends for whatever was said during the heat of the trade deadline. Edit: Damn Spelling!!!