Opie

And to compound that Kopecky is on the mend for an injury that usually takes at least 1 year to get back to normal form. I think that will be a large factor in whether or not he sees a lot of time next season.

GS&T either I am misreading your posts or you are missing my point. You seem to be focusing on the fact that I brought up his flaws and missing the fact that I am saying the wings need what he provides. I never disputed that, I am just hoping they find a guy who can do it nightly.

I would argue that there are mental aspects of the game that Cheli is so far above and beyond the youngsters that it isn't even funny. He can PK very effectively, how many of those youngsters would you feel comfortable on the PK. Remember, it is said that he will play some where near half the season (barring injuries) he will be there so that Meech/Quincey can get 40-50 games under their belts. Cheli definitely provides something that the youngsters can not provide, experience.

That does sound intriguing doesn't it! So much for that pinned July 1 thread, huh!

So much for that July 1 thread that is pinned huh?

GS&T I am not trying to hammer home the point, I am defending my posts. See what appears to happen is I reply to your post, some one calls out something I said, I reply to that post and then you say I get it you think Downey has flaws, or you reply to my post, it is a vicious never ending cycle!!! But it is not like I am just posting and posting and posting that Downey has flaws, posters are questioning what I posted and I am defending my position. I think most of us are on the same page, yes Downey is better than nothing, but is something better out there? And while yes Flip, Franzen, Huds, etc may have flaws and be a liability when it comes to fighting or hitting, but they have fewer flaws/liabilities than positives they bring, for instance most of the guys you mentioned can score, carry the puck, defend, play the PK or PP, however they can't hit or Fight. Where as Downey can hit and fight but can't do much else, thus he has more flaws/liabilities than he does positives. Therefore overall he is a liability with a few rare assets for this team, where as the others are assets that have liabilities. Not sure if that makes any sense at all. I am not saying get rid of Downey he is a bum, that was what I said last summer, I am not even saying if they get a "Legit" enforcer (one who can play nightly) that they should get rid of him. I am just saying I would prefer to see a guy who can play nightly.

Maybe I should have choosen my words more carefully, the ship could be righted, I am not saying this was a bad signing, but a signing that puts them in a tight spot. I think I said many times you can not just let Vinny walk away, if they do that they look like asshats. Stamkos might be the Kane or Toews you are right but that makes him 3-4 years out from being a top tier NHL player, as you said he will probably not be Crosby or Ovechkin and get to that top tier in 1-2 seasons. Prospal is still not signed, he will not be cheap and IMHO is overrated, they guy is a good hockey player but in my opinion is not a player that when he is signed it makes you stand up and say wow, Tampa just got a lot better with Prospal. Unfortunately for them, signing him would make a big difference on their team. My main point is that they have 8 forwards next year signed and that is it, Detroit will not be in that situation for a long time coming if it happens at all. And to even further my point not only does Det have players like Kronwall, Datsyuk, Rafalski long term, they have a feeder system developing. Meech, Quincey, Helm, Hudler, Flip, Mule all young guys that have shown the potential to be daily contributors. And they have guys like Cleary signed for a long time, that may be the equivalent of a Prospal signing for Tampa, but I don't hear people raving about the youngsters in the Tampa system. Again I am not saying this is a bad signing, unless you want to have no fans after next season, and be an even worse team you have to sign this guy, he is top 10 talent and as pointed out by others is not an injury prone player. You have to sign this kid, but it hamstrings them, I don't see the cap going much higher than 60 mil unless the league revenue goes through the roof, and you have a guy signed for pretty decent money for 9 years. The Z situation will be no different, Ken Holland can not let this kid slip away, if he asks for 8.5 9 years you have to say, OK Mr. Zetterberg, enjoy your 9 year stay in Detroit. But that would hamstring the Red Wings, not as much as Tampa, because Detroit has the guys I mentioned above for different lengths of time. Where as in Tampa they will have 8 players and no goaltender. Boyle is overpaid and is not a great defenseman, as I stated he would be #3 in Detroit at best, and would make a great linemate for Kronwall, at 3.5-4 mil. There defense is not setup at all, they have offense and will be drafting another top line offensive talent, they have nothing beyond a first line currently. They barely have a first pairing with Kuba and Boyle. Again, they may find a way to trade (St. Louis is cheap the last 2 years) or maneuver around some money however this appears to have them in a bind.

Because as stated by others the only defensive spots that are a lock are 1-3, after that it is a free for all. And why is it in the Downey thread it is ok for the wings to have a guy who is only going to play half the season, but it is not ok for them to have a veteran d-man who was on the PK for most of the season for half the year.

That post was in response to some one saying he is not a liability, and I reiterate, because he can do one thing and do it well, that does not mean he isn't a liability else where. I have said in this thread Aaron Downey is a hell of a lot better than nobody, I would much rather them carry him than no one at all. What I also stated and you may have missed is that my preference would be to get a guy who can play 75+ games log 8-10 minutes and put up 10-20 points. I am not looking for a Milan Lucic, however I would love to have him, I am just saying I would prefer to have a guy that you can have on the ice night in and night out and not have to worry about the match up all of the time. As for Pheonix being the toughest team, to me that is a bit of an exaggeration, they will not be as physical as Ana, nor Philly for that matter IMO.

The only problem here is I am not sure that Homer can be Homer on another line, the beauty of what he does is that Z and D can control the puck in the zone moving around using the D, and Homer can do his thing. NOW not saying Homer doesn't do anything but stick his ass in the goalie's face, but he has a limited skill set when compared to Mule. Therefore I think you have to keep Homer on the first line and Mule on the second, otherwise you would have a very talented 1st line and a second line that just doesn't have skill. And please don't take this as anti-homer, the guy is great, but he is not going to score too many goals form the dots out, Mule can.

GS&T I agree you need to have some one do it, but on the ice if he is not fighting Downey is indeed a liability. Just because he provides something in one area doesn't mean he isn't a liability in another. Again I will say Downey is way way way better than no one, but I would prefer a guy who can play game in game out and chip in even minimally offensively. I am just struck by how this board loves a guy like Downey and he is not a liability but a guy like Sammy is a complete waste and should be traded for a bag of pucks. Just because the guy defends his teammates doesn't mean that when the puck is in his own zone and he is forced to cover one of the other teams top 6 (maybe 9) forwards (can happen icing, bad change, last change) you can not argue that he isn't a liability. He is not a very good defender, he has 0 shot, hands of stone, the best move the guy has is to give the puck to someone else, how is that not a liability?

Wouldn't you have to be a GM first?

I have to admit, there is not another teams board in the NHL or probably AHL where the team carrying an enforcer is almost pinnable material!

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=73351 Year________Team_______________League_GP__G____A_____PTS__PIM 2004-05 Shawinigan Cataractes QMJHL 70 24 23 47 52 2005-06 Shawinigan Cataractes QMJHL 55 26 48 74 66 2006-07 Shawinigan Cataractes QMJHL 68 29 44 73 37 2007-08 Chicoutimi Sagueneens QMJHL 69 54 48 102 54 Those are decent stats I have to admit, especially last season, 102 points in 69 games! WOW!!! And he is right handed to boot! And apparently he fights as well!! http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/1277

And I am not worried about him leaving the Wings, if he retired fine he was a big part of setting up the system here and it will continue in his absence, I just don't want him working his magic on another franchise!

Do you mean I can't make and use blind assumptions to back up my posts, surely you jest!

Preaching to the choir my man, the funny thing is when people s*** on me for bringing up a topic that is a month or so old and are like, what did you do that for, I thought this was a new post, well how about you check out the date there slappy!!

I appreciate this thread as much as anyone else, however if people can't see threads that are on the front page and make a new one, some how I don't think this will live up to expectations.

Yet the wings have players like Kronwall Ralfalski, it is not so much the money tied up it is the talent that they have tied up in that money. They have next to nothing after the first line and the #1 d-man who would be #3 at best on the wings.

They have 2 all star forwards, one overpaid decent D man and a back up goalie they are hoping can be a starter. They don't just need a second pairing d man they need 4 nhl caliber d men at least one of them being a top 3 d-man if not needing 2 top 3 dmen. They currently have 8 forwards under contract for this year and 8 players for next year. This team is in a bad way, Stamkos will be cheap, if he doesn't pull a Lindros. Like I said earlier they would look like asses letting him go, but look at next year, no goaltender, 2 great forwards, and one decent D man. There were better more important ways to spend this money, but I agree they really had to sign him, or they would be in a worse situation, but at least they would have money to fill out their roster. Over 23 million tied up in 8 players next season, they will need at least 9 forwards and 3 dmen, plus 2 goaltenders. Granted they may be able to get that done with some of their RFA's but they will have no 2nd line, let alone a third line, and they will have no 2nd pairing or 3rd pairing and they will have no goaltender and no back up at the end of this coming season.

Cool Harold, I am with you Downey would be a hell of a lot better than nothing, but I would like to see them get someone who can skate every game.

If your comment was directed at me, not sure it was, I am not saying let the PP be the enforcer, I am saying have an enforcer that if he dresses for 54 games it won't be his career high, or that if he averages more than 6:43 ATOI it won't be a career high, or if he scores 6 points it won't be a career high. A guy who can play 75+ games (barring injury) get some where between 8-10 minutes just possibly get 10+ points, heaven forbid he get 15-20. I would love Lucic, not happening, and those players are very hard to find I get that, but no matter what people say Aaron Downey and his limited ability and skill make him a liability, you have to plan a back up for him. He is the only non goaltender on the team that needs a back up because you know he can't play the whole season, and when he is in the lineup he can't even handle the minutes his 4th line role demands. Plus I stand by my point I was making a year ago, having an enforcer will not stop Lappy or Pronger or Tuutu from running LIds, Z, Dats.

I am sure there are a bunch of GM's in the league that would gladly give him that as well!

I am sorry but to me a guy who can only play 4.5 minutes a game is a liability, it shortens your bench and it doesn't give his linemates the opportunities they should have to develop chemistry. More than likely Helm and Hudler would be on the 4th line with him, yet they only play with him less than half of their minutes, then they are playing with a winger from another line, if he can't play 8-10 minutes he is a liability. I LOVED the fact he turtled Lappy, but to say things like he earned a spot even if it is 5 games, or that he deserves 5 minutes a game wreaks of the guy being a liability he may not be a liability in the fact that he doesn't take penalties but the fact he doesn't skate well (For and NHL player) and has hands of stone make him a liability on the ice, he has one role, protect players. He does it well, but if the wings can get a guy that can play 8-10 minutes play some D, get 10-25 points a season that is not a liability because he can play in a lot more situations and more minutes than Downey.

I will worry about Bowman leaving the org when he himself and no one else says it. Media outlets around the NHL have Bowman going here and there, and everytime he says, I am staying.