Opie

No, you backed up your opinion with stats, however the two players you backed it up with are already in the top 6!!!! You are correct, Flip and Homer are much better than Sammy, I will agree with you on that all day and all night!!! But what evidence do you have that suggests with another wing forward in his place the team could have done better? What forward that was on the roster or even invited to training camp could have stepped in and played a top 6 role? Notice that as soon as Mule started to show he had the ability to step in, Sammy went to the third line. The stats you used also show that Hartigan deserved top line minutes over Dats and Z, so I am not so sure the stats you used were valid, IMO. But if you look closely at my posts I admit that what I say about Sammy is IMO (in my opinion) were as you state it like it is a fact that anyone could have taken his spot, yet the two you backed up (again I set you up for it) are top 6 players already.

Yeah he broke his nose celebrating winning the cup, it is not like there were games left to be played after that. Had Shanny broken his nose after winning the WCF than you have a point. But the point here is that Shanny did tackle Yzerman, and he could have injured his back, but he did it AFTER THE DEAL WAS SEALED!!!

IMHO: next year Helm play for Drake and Abdelkader for Mule, Mule for Sammy ZDH Cleary/Huds Flip Mule Cleary/Huds Draper Abdelkader Maltby/Kopecky Helm/Kopecky Mac

If you looked at the incident in a vacuum yes Marty would have looked like an ass, but this is where I agree with Milbury and you probably agree with Pierre. All of the things that Avery is, and all of the things he says/said or does/did, makes him who he is. Trashing Euros, Francos, and anyone else he thinks is less than him publicly make him the asshat, Broduer looks like some one who doesn't respect Avery. And then when you look at the two players past, whom do you think is going to get the benefit of the doubt. Many players have bypassed shaking hands, hell Cheli did it last year. I don't see why Broduer owed Avery anything that Avery wasn't going to give or in this case show Broduer. IMO Avery deserves no respect!

You brought up comparing minutes not games played, I was using your criteria not mine!!! (stats can be made to say anything you want if you just take them for face value). BTW sh% is the most useless stat, IMO, are you trying to tell me that the following players are better than Dats because they have better SH% In order of SH% for the team Hartigan Flip Homer Franzen Z Dats Guess what those two were both on one of the top two lines!!!!!!!! (my bad I set you up for that) Whom would you say could have taken Sammy's spot that was on one of the the bottom 2 lines? You still haven't showed me who would have replaced him, Flip was his center when he was on the second line, so therefore he is eliminated from the conversation, Homer was on the first line most of the time which would have meant to put him on the second line Sammy is on the first line. Cleary, as I have said before, would have been a bad move because that would have broken up the best defensive line. Maltby can't hold Sammy's jock when it comes to offense. Downey, Please. Mule, completely unproven until after the All star break. Huds, was on the 2nd line with him before going to the 4th. Hartigan? Kopecky? Drake? Who takes his place? Oh and btw before you make up your mind remember the coach, who happened to win 50 + for the 3rd straight season, wanted a right handed shot, this team has all of 5 right handers including D-men. I am not saying that the guy is an all world top 6 player, I am saying he was a decent 6th forward who obviously got the job done, because the team was #1 in the league. Before you think I am a "Sammy Slappy" or whatever you want to call it, you should know that I already stated he shouldn't be playing now, and that with the development of Mule and Cleary he becomes and expendable part next year. I am not saying Sammy is a main part of the engine that drives this team, but he is a cog, and with out that cog (despite all of the future predicting you want to do) none of us know what would have happened. I have to assume (dangerous) that Babs and Holland would have done what they needed to do to fix that hole.

Yet another reason to like Avery, Not!!!! He calls one of the classiest and most respected players in the game Fatso, after he was the one making an ass of himself. I have said it before and I will say it again, he can score as much as he wants, hell he can win the Conn Smythe and I would still not want him in the Winged Wheel!

Can I ask why? I think Nabby deserves it. All three played a tremendous amount of games but nabby went 77 starts 46 wins 2.14 .910% Marty went 77 44 2.17 .920% Henrik went 72 37 2.23 .912% I also have a western conference bias, I think the Sharks played in a tougher division and conference. I will tell you this much though anyone of those guys goes down with an injury and their teams would have sucked ass

Who is that?

Youngguns I get your point, however do you really think he will sign for 5 mil?

I agree in the post season, there are others who are doing the job and filling the role that he did in the season. He has looked bad these past 2+ games, real bad.

Including Homer, whom he had more points then, or Flip who he had more points then? There are my two, now how about you back your statement up with something more than your OPINION!!!!

Sure let Downey play for him, then what do you do with the 10 minutes left over that Downey can't play?? You can't just throw some one in the line up because they are a winger. That is the whole point to the time Sammy got in the Reg season, you can't put Downey in his place because Downey plays 6 minutes a game at most and scored precisely 1 Point all season. Show me some proof that the Wings were better short handed than with Sammy playing 5v5! You are aware of what proof is right, something to back up your statement. Based on your statement that would mean that with Sammy on the ice it is the equivalent of the wings playing 5-3, so his +/- must be horrible right, or that there is no way he could be top 5 in assists or top 7 in scoring!!! BTW when did you start working for the wings. As you posted WE you must be a part of the team or org, especially considering you (you said we) can play better 4-5, that must make you a PK specialist. Draper, Mule????? Way to show your Hockey intelligence with that post!!

Which would mean 5 Mil or more meaning, he could potentially play for 5 mil, if I had said he will make at least 1 mil would that make sense? Of course he will make more than minimum wage, but would it have made sense if I had said he would make at least 7.25 an hour?

You think the Wings are getting Ryan Miller for 5 mil, what on earth are you smoking and can I have some!! JS Giguere 5.5 to start 7 at the end Kipper 8 (3yrs) to start then 6 (1 year) 3.5(1 year) then 1 (1 year) Jose Theodore 4.5, 5.5, 6 Turco 6, 5.7, 5.7, 5.4 Dipietro 4.5 for the next 100 years, this should be on sale of the century (sorry for the young folks that don't get that joke!) Lundqvist(sp) 7.7, 7.7, 6.8, 7.7, 6.8, 6.8, 5.1 (Not the goaltender Miller is YET!!) Nabby 5, 5, 5.5, 6 Most of these deals were signed before the salary cap went up, the best comparrison would have to be Lundquist and Miller will get more than that on the open market. Miller for 5 with the cap going up this year and more than likely next is laughable and if Ken Holland pulls that off he should be investigated by the players association for collusion!!! You honestly think that in 09 Miller will make less money than Jose Theodore, really?

Look at the roster, how many players from that wings team are still on this roster!!! Good try though it didn't show you to be bitter at all!!!

You're right he sucked all year and how Babcock has a job after playing him all of those minutes absolutely astonishes me, because honestly without him the team easily would have been first in the league, oh wait, well the surely would have been one of the best offensive teams without Sammy, oh wait, well then they definitely would have been one of the best defensive teams in the league without him, oh wait, well they surely would have won at least 50 games without Sammy, DAMN it again something that they did with him in the line up. Well I mean it is not like the guy had 25 assists or anything, oh crap, well he must have had at least a s***ty +/-, oh damn it again he was +21. Again, you are right what in the hell was Babcock thinking giving this guy 16 minutes of ice time when he easily could have played anyone of the following players in his spot that don't play on line one that had better stats than Sammy. Are you ready the list is really long: Cleary Hudler I mean it is not like the guy was top 5 on the team in assists or anything!! Yeah he should have been benched all year and his ice time given to any number of the players on the team that had better stats then him, just for fun lets list them shall we: In order by pts Dats Z Lids Ralf Cleary Hudler So in your infinite hockey coaching and GM experience tell me of those who should have been placed in the top 6 instead of Sammy? One Guy Cleary, and he was playing such great D with Draper Babs would have been silly to break up his best Defensive line and swap Cleary for Sammy who is not nearly the defender Cleary is. Remember Mule didn't step it up until the second half of the season!

You don't think they are going to have to pay out the Arse for Miller? Miller is not going to be traded for until the deadline if at all, he can not be signed until after next season. HE WILL COST A TON!!!! He will probably be the most sought after UFA, what makes you think he will come to Detroit and not be expensive? And no the Wings Don't HAVE to do something, they have an all star starter currently, and they have a young guy who looks to have the skill set to be a very solid netminder. Detroit is not a team that usually throws money at the goaltending issue.

Hey man I give credit where credit is due, and I will critique when it is time. :-) My stance all along has been that Sammy served a role, now that Mule has stepped up, and the youth show that his role has been eliminated. I was by no means a huge fan, or in love with Sammy, I just thought he unabashed Sammy bashing was unwarranted and I defended a decent player.

Selanne and Forsberg are not in the same conversation as Neids, Neids was under contract, the difference is huge!!!

With the development of Franzen as a top 6 threat, Sammy's role goes to nearly zilch. He shouldn't be on the PP and the last two games has looked, bad!!! You can blame the ice all you want for yesterday's miscues, but what about game 5? With the development of youth Sammy is trade able in the offseason, and his role now has become something outside of his skill set. His place on the third line could be filled with anyone of the following: Maltby: I dogged on this guy all year, however you cannot replace his type of experience in the post season. Huds: Hudler has shown he deserves the minutes over Sammy, IMO all year long. Abdelkader: Maybe not in the post season, but if the guy can keep the puck on his stick and make a decision in less than the three seconds it is currently taking Sammy, give him the shot. I have defended Sammy all year because he was the guy that filled the gap that guys like Huds and Mule have shown they can take over now. His role has been eliminated, just tell him the Wings are downsizing, hey it worked for one of the companies I worked for why not an NHL team!

Atilla, I am not so sure they say here comes that little Russian in Nashville anymore, I think they now say look out here comes a Russian. Either Dats or Kronwall was hitting a Predator every shift, Kronwall was lighting people up and Dats was finishing his checks. I love the type of Hockey the wings are playing right now, it has a physical edge to it that we as wings fans haven't seen in a while, yet they are playing with their typical you can't touch the puck for 2 shifts unless we say so possession style. And then if the other team does get the puck some one is going to either steal it very quickly or, they are going to get hit by some one!! BTW: I know he wasn't MVP caliber, and he didn't hit the score sheet, BUT Sir Dallas Drake deserves some Kudos for the way he has played. Instead of watching or paying attention to what they are supposed to be doing, the Preds players were yelling out heads up to each other when Dallas is honing in on his prey!!! He is going to earn his league minimum check in the post season alone!! I also think the face shield is hindering Cleary, you can not forget that as he looks down for the puck he now has that hunk of plastic in his field of vision, it will take some getting used to! Think about a guy like Rip Hamiliton, it took him a lot to get used to the shield for his nose, and now he can't shoot for crap without it, how long ago did he break that thing, 5-6 years ago.

Gotta tell you, I am a little disappointed by this, had the Red Sox not beaten the Yankees for the Championship in 04 it wouldn't have been so sweet, it would have been great to see the Wings eliminated the ducks, but I will take what I can get!!!!

I have defended Sammy ALL YEAR LONG, but to say anything other than he played like crap the last 2+ games is a lie. He has had a hard time controlling the puck, now Yesterday you can blame that on expansion teams in the south with their 30 degree ice (I don't know the real temp, that was an exaggeration), but even in Det where the announcers made a point to say the ice was 2 degrees, he couldn't settle the puck on his stick. The puck seems to get to his stick and then the Mexican Jumping beans in the puck take over. Huds deserves minutes over Sammy right now, and Sammy needs to be off of the ice on the PP. I am not sure if Sammy is nervous or if he is just in a bad stretch but Huds deserves his minutes, however I would say that Huds, Helm(my first time seeing him, I really like the way he skates, whomever told me he was a Draper type skater I apologize, I thought you were full of s***! Sorry), and Mac deserve more ice time in general. I LOVE THE WAY MAC DRIVES THE NET, as noted by the announcers he set up Huds goal, running through the slot like that, this is the second goal that his body position on a defender led to a goal, that last one he created the passing lane, and on his own goal, he bodied the defender away from where the puck ended up and tapped it home.

I will bring this up in yet another Miller thread (and probably get no response again): Those of you that want Jiggy Jr. Miller cannot be the same posters complaining about J.S. Giguere's pads, are you? Because then you are a hypocrite, Miller's pads are not much smaller than Giguere's, the only large difference I would say is the height of his shoulder pads. Other than that I have no problem with they guy!

When interviewed about the fine Mike Millbury had the following to say: