Opie

That is a good point, I too would think the team would be all over him for defending himself, but you are right he just sort of walks by them all and nothing. I honestly think that if they didn't know they were facing each other in a couple of days that incident never happens. Edit: But my point is still the same, you can't have a double standard for star or skilled players when it comes to them getting hit or punched, and then in another thread say that Pronger should have gotten 30 games and complain that he didn't. You have already set a precedence for star players being treated differently! (not saying you as in you, as in general)

I guess technically was the wrong term, but the prime of a players career is usually around 30(give or take a couple of years, but as GS&T pointed out, that is not really the case anymore. See AO!!!! But physical maturity in Males is usually completed some where between 25 and 30 depending on the person, that was sort of where I was going, so I guess my wording could have used some help! But based on the growth Pavel has made he is just rounding into a complete player and all stages of his game are catching up with his sick offensive skill. I would say that both Dats and Z are in their prime based on developing into a complete player, the only thing I see either of them lacking is leadership and that is only because of the veteran presence that has always been around them. That doesn't mean in the Locker Room they aren't leaders, just I am not in the locker room and have no idea.

GS&T I agree with what you are saying about once they sort of squared off, I hate that he punched him with the gloves on. I love the fact that Gaborik had the balls to stand there, because like you said it was suicidal. But lets look at the setting the stage for the playoffs, maybe in Gaboriks head he is thinking, if I stand up to this guy even if I get smashed in the face, it will show my team that I (arguably the softest player on the team) won't back down and then they will feed off off of that and really take it to the Avs. I, like you, can't say what led up to the fight, but what Lappy did to get Gaborik agitated or riled up was perfectly fine in my book. Otherwise put the "Skilled" players in different colored jerseys, put little flags on their hips and lets not touch them! IMO!

I'm sorry I wouldn't have talked to you like that had you not said that because I stated an opinion I was arguing with you. NO I didn't like it when Yzerman was jumped, you know why, because I couldn't take my Red Wing glasses off. That is exactly why!!! But if you asked me to look at it as an observer, like this incident where I don't really care about either team or player, I say that I have no clue what happened between those two, all I know is that at some point in time, Gaborik willing dropped his gloves. He could have skated away and been called names or whatever, but he didn't he was man enough to step up, unfortunately that is where Lappy crossed the line IMO, not when he started cross checking and hacking at him. To be clear (I may not have been earlier) I love what Gaborik did and I think more "Skilled" players should do it. Now instead of defending your statements by calling me argumentative, basically a troll, why not back them up. Tell me why that was so dirty, why was it ok for Cheli to crosscheck Kane, but not Lappy to do it to Gaborik? So that you know ahead of time, a statement Like won't exactly come off as a ringing endorsement, because that says to me that we are dealing with a double standard and that sometimes it is ok and some times it isn't. Well when is it ok, when it is someone you don't like, when the guy says some thing about your wife, when he looks at you funny? When, I am not sure when the usually turns into don't or it is ok this time? The kind of crap before they(well Lappy) started throwing happens all of the time in the league, it is the reason Crosby got in a fight, he was tired of it, the difference being the guy that he went at it with had the balls to do it fair and not with a gloved hand. To me him punching him in the face with a glove is a totally classless and Tootoo type move, that I have a distinct problem with. Again if Avery did this to Forsberg, this board would be up in arms screaming about this is exactly why the wings need Avery back. But, my contention is that because it was Lappy people are blowing it out of proportion. I didn't say you wanted it to be pillow hockey because you said he shouldn't have done it, I said that because you asked me MY OPINION of what I would think if it was Dats, I answered your question. Albeit with a little attitude, but still I don't see why player A cannot be hit a certain way or a certain place while player B can be, same as I don't see why Pronger got 8 games and Simon got 30! I am not saying you are wrong and if you re-read my posts you will notice I say things like I THINK, or IMO, I LIKE, I never said this is how it should be! Also you seem to not have noticed that one of my main points of contention this whole discussion is that, none of us know what happened even 10 seconds before that play, let alone the whole friggin' game that had been played up until that point. And then at the end of the clip (the one you assumed I didn't watch) you will hear the announcer say he was setting the tone for the series, hey wait didn't some one on here post that exact statement, oh yeah ME!!! I guarantee the next time they play Lappy knows what is coming to him, he went out there did what he did, knowing that he was going to have to pay for punching the teams star player. So I get this right and I am not misunderstanding you: If that was Mark Parrish, Mikko Koivu, or Eric Belanger do you still have a problem with how it happened, or is it just because it is Gaborik that you have the problem. If that is the case the I assume you have no problem with Pronger only getting 8 and Simon getting 30, because you APPEAR to be fine with the double standard.

The messed up part is that this is technically the START of his prime!!!!!!!

Hillbilly: I am done TALKING to you if you are going to say that because I have a different opinion that I am arguing with you, yet you provide nothing to discuss with me other than "Stop arguing with me" so sorry, I was wrong! BTW: When did I say you wanted fighting out of the game, when did I say I wanted fighting out of the game? My point was, if DATS doesn't want to have that crap done to him do something about it. Watch how GS&T and I do this, we differ on a lot of things and we will hash them out, but it is not a flame war, or trolling or arguing, it is debating! GS&T you mean to tell me that if Gaborik skates off, and does nothing Lappy still punches him in the face, are you trying to tell me he goes Bert on him and for no reason at all? Read "what it means to be a red wing" (if you haven't already), the players talk about how back in the day there were no enforcers, everyone protected their own back. Why should it be different today, because players are more skilled? So because Gaborik has no fights in his career he should be able to mouth off at a guy, repercussion free? Because until you can tell me exactly what happened between those for every second that led up to that moment in time, I am not going to assume that Lappy started all of that. Odds are he did though but none of us can prove that, we are just going by our (here we go this is a good one for this board) OPINIONS!! Sure you can draw an inference and say looking at those two who is more likely to start that BS, hands down Lappy. That still doesn't make it a fact. Because a player cross checks another a couple of times doesn't mean that that the player has to turn and drop the gloves, Gaborik DID!! Again the gloved punches are what I have a problem with, those things can do some severe damage, one of those misplaced can do some severe, severe mental damage. Think of it as more of a strategy instead of a thuggery, you know like the Avs wanted Gaborik looking over his shoulder for the whole playoff series. Nobody had a problem with Avery doing it last year, after he took a run at Kovy, in fact some people were using that as a reason he SHOULD be brought back to the wings, because his actions pretty much took Kovy completely out of his game. Again I state that I think this uprising is mainly from the fact that Lappy hit Lids!

Look at it this way If the Wings traded for someone this year and Lids was for some reason retired, would that person be allowed #5, NO WAY IN HELL!! What about 14, already done. 91, I would be very willing to bet that if some one wanted 91, they would get it in the D. 16, will never be worn again in Detroit! I am not sure they will put it in the rafters but no one will wear it! 30, odds are when Ozzie is gone, some one will wear it. The only current players that I see as having a chance at being in the rafters are: Lids (shoe in) Drapes (not so sure, but if they hoist another cup he probably gets up there, because he has been a defensive specialist his whole career, busting his ass. His work ethic supersedes his stats!) Dats (he would have to be a life long wing though) Zetterberg (again would have to be a lifer, and throwing the C on his jersey may help though). I think the best analogy I can give you to the Wings Jersey "Requirements"(none of us know what that is) is the Red Sox, they will not retire a players number unless they finish their career with the Sox, and their best years were as a Red Sock, hence why they signed Fisk at the very tail end of his career. And even then he signed as a office personnel, because he was arguably the best Catcher in Red Sox history. The Wings IMO are very similar, your prime would have to be in the Winged Wheel (Feds, Ozzie, all fit that ) and you gave up something tangible to stay a Wing, whether that be money (Lids case), ice time, being close to your family, stardom, whatever it is I think the Org wants to see that a player is willing to give up everything for the Wings, even if that means playing on a decimated Knee. Another way to think of it, the three slam dunk numbers that are retired: Howe, Yzerman, Sawchuk. Edit: Got lost in my own mind: Do Shanny, Feds, Ozzie represent the same things about being a Red Wing as these guys? Those of you using players who left and came back to defend Feds getting his number retired must be very careful with whom you use for examples. Like others have said, the players from the 50's got hosed by management, Adams decided he wanted to blow the team up, they were winning Championships at a great clip, he thought he was more important than the players and sent them packing. So that is different than 2x going to the team and saying pay me more of I am out the door. I am not bitter about the way Feds left, he had every right to make fair market value and take what anyone wanted to pay him. But if you are talking about the Wings retiring jersey's that is seen as a no no, they want to see that you value the team/Org more than you do your Wallet, Ice time, stardom, etc.

Sorry is this Ice Hockey or is it tidily winks!! If Dats is getting crossed checked in the back and doesn't want it to happen anymore than he should do something about it. Otherwise skate to the bench complain to the coach about it and then the coach or the enforcer has to find away to get him on the ice with said person. Then the enforcer finally meets him at center, they drop gloves and Z loses a breakaway. As opposed to Dats taking care of it himself. You know like Joe T used to do, granted he got a broken jaw out of the deal, but he took care of business himself! Just because he is a skilled player doesn't mean parts of the game don't apply to him. It is the same argument I have against guys that do nothing but fight, just because they fight doesn't mean they should be excluded from scoring. Do I expect Dats to take on Heavyweights on a nightly basis. NO! But if he wants guys to stop hitting him, or to stop taking liberties with him, stop them. OR deal with it, OR take up pillow Hockey!! Granted I don't want him breaking his hand in a fight, but I would rather he fight and break his hand then get checked in the back and mess his back up. If Gabby didn't want to fight why then did his gloves end up on the ice, did they fall off? How do you know he didn't want to fight? Did he tell you so, I am not sure about you but when I see a guy drop his gloves while standing on the ice jawing back and forth at some one that, to me, is a good indicator that he wants to go! Was the cross check dirty, technically yes, but find a shift in the NHL where 2-3 of those don't happen. Everyone in the GDT was all pumped when Cheli was doing it to Kane, yet when Lappy did it to Gaborik it was dirty. Really that is interesting! The only difference between Cheli/Kane and Gaborik/Lappy is that Gaborik wanted to stop what was happening and had the balls to turn and do something about it, he got punched in the face for his troubles.

I knew that, I just thought maybe an editor maybe should have noticed that!

Listen not to be picky here but did you (both of you not just GMR) just compare Lappy to Probert as well as Gaborik to Gretz and Super Mario?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! In all fairness, Gaborik had dropped his gloves, therefore he was up to the task, so the argument that Lappy was sucker punching or attacking Gaborik is a little far fetched. I will agree though that punching some one in the face with a glove on while the other player has dropped his is bush league!!! Especially when it is a "non fighter"/"skill" player who has WILLINGLY dropped his mits. Other than that I have no problem with what Lappy did. I can't in good faith say that the enforcer rule should be dropped and that players need to protect/police themselves, and then say that punching a "Skill" player with a glove on is ok, but also, just because Gaborik isn't a skilled player that doesn't exclude him from having to answer the bell. We have no idea what was said or happened behind the play. Crosby has to deal with slashes and all kinds of other crap, how did he try to stop it, he got in a fight. Now if the "Non Fighter" does answer the bell, he better be able to throw. If not DON"T DROP YOUR GLOVES! Go whine to your coach or enforcer and let them take care of it, but don't expect the "dirty" play to stop. If you don't like guys taking liberties with you, stop them, or find a way to play with them doing it.

First off, how can Detroit be 5-3-0 in the season series and the Preds be 3-3-0?

How dare you say anything decent or not inflammatory about lappy, did you see what he did to Lids!!! OK, OK, sarcasm aside, the reason why people are up in arms about this is because he laid out a dirty (I say questionable) hit on Lids, now any time he does anything remotely goonish or Thugish the posters on here are going to come out calling for his head. Just think about Pronger, he wasn't that hated around here until the Homer incident, then he became the Spawn himself. I mean sure most people on here didn't like him, or thought that his wife being the reason he bailed on EDM was low brow, but most didn't have the hatred they do now for him. Most of us as wings fans have a habit of holding grudges against any act that leaves a clipped wing (pun intended) in any way shape or form.

I see the lines as Lids Ralf Kron Stu Cheli Lils The rest have great attributes and doing things very well, but of the 4-5 options to be the 6h d-man I see Lilja with the most to offer the team. His blocked shots will help tremendously.

Don't get me wrong I am not here to start a goalie flame war nor do I have it in for either of the goalies but with what I have seen of Dom towards the season's end (have to admit I haven't seen a lot this last week or so) I see him losing an either game 1 or 2 by a decent amount and I see Babs going to Ozzie. Again it is not that I think Dom is horrible or anything like that, I just see his groin as being past its prime. I am not sure the dude can stay healthy playing 8-10 games in a row, especially if the Wings go deep in a series. I see Ozzie taken the reigns over half way through the series. I hope I am wrong, but that is just the gut feeling I have!

Any interesting point on the Yahoo description of the series read the bold part: That should be good for the Wings, not only is there really no travel involved in this series but they have a night off between each game. This will help when the Wings have to go to the farthest edge of the Continental US for the rest of the playoffs!

With the lack of people to suit up I think they should just invert the lines. Line 4 gets line 1 minutes line 3 gets line 2 minutes so on and so on. Same with d pairings. That way the guys are not getting as many minutes but you also don't have to forfiet for lack of players.

Thank you, I tend to get lumped into the Homer or everything is rosie group because I defend players like Sammy, Huds, or Lilja by saying the don't suck. Then it becomes a "you think any thing Red Wings do is great." That is not true I can be as unbiased as the next, but lets look at this wings team. First in the div, conf, nhl, 3 of the top 25 players in the game. Sure not every player is going to measure up to Lids, Dats, Z, but how much can you really complain about something like PP point or minutes. If the coach has the team winning all year, why do we scream and yell about what he is doing and who he is playing where. Again, I have no problem if anyone wants to state an opinion and back it up, fine. What bothers me is the group of people who have become more and more abundant around here who just bash the team or the players, without offering more than their opinion for why they suck. You are right though Crymson it is a defense mechanism, that way if the wings lose they can say I told you so, and if the wings win they can say, I rooted for them the whole time!

Not to side with Calfan but Z and D were nearly invisible on road games, they put up good numbers, but most of those numbers were at home. Not saying I think they are playoff busts or anything.

His point (I am guessing here) was in reference to him and I having many conversations about the importance of fighters. Paul Laus did nothing for Florida except get PIMs and in fights. I only know this because I saw his quote in your post and had to look it up thinking I missed some one, well, relevant. But alas I didn't.

Kukla left that radio interview the same way I left the Dennis Miller interview. Wishing, just hoping that the interviewer had shut up just long enough for Scotty to finish a story, to really get into the details of what he is talking about. Scotty is not a guy that gives a two second answer unless that answer was complete. He is like the Ents in LOTR, they don't say anything unless it is worth talking about and he will make sure he is thorough when he talks about it. I wish I lived close enough to hear Scotty on the radio weekly!!!

Macfan4life Sorry about this confusion, but the reason this thread is here is because that is how a lot of people post and mean it.

I can't remember is the norris a one vote system or is a first second third vote system. If it is the latter Lids could easily sweep and get all of the first place votes, half of the second place and 1/4 of the third place votes, because literally there is no one close to him this year. Don't take that as I disrespect any other d-men, Phanuef is going to be great could win a couple of Norris trophies, but Nick is just that much better than anyone else this year. I think Next year (this is a guess based on improved play this year) Phanuef and maybe Neids(If back) will give Lids some competition but not this year.

Well seeing as the season ends in the summer all teams will be golfing, even the cup winners! Fairweather fan, unless you are joking and I missed you obvious attempt at sarcasm. Hey if you want to give up on the Wings because they lost a season series or even one game to the Blackhawks be my guest, join the line behind the others that either couldn't deal with Holland not getting "Their Guy" or Babcock playing Player x too much. It is a long line to bail on the Wings, but you know what there is no line back in. That door is locked. Do you people realize how irrational you sound, do you ever read your own posts, you probably should. But all I have to say is good, less bandwagon fans, oh wait you can't be a bandwagon fan because the team is still the best team in hockey and if they can get one more point they will sew up the President's trophy. In order to be a bandwagon fan you would root for them when they are winning and trash them when they are losing. Some of you are bailing on them so that IF they lose in the playoffs you can say I told you so, but I mean you have 15-1 odds of being right. Where as those of us who are saying we think they can win have a 15-1 chance of having egg on our face. I would rather eat crow than bail on my team because of something like lines, personnel moves, or who plays the pp point. You think the Wings aren't good enough to win, fine say that then back it up. You know back up your statement with facts (Fact: 1.Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed, 2. A real occurrence; an event, 3. A thing that has been done) and then maybe people won't think you are a whiner or a spoiled fan. I am not saying I am happy they lost last night, I just understand that no team wins the cup every year and no team will go undefeated. Look at the Celtics this year, destroying the west, killing the east, well except Philly and Charlotte, because they struggle against a certain type of team that happens to be in the lower echelon of the league, doesn't mean they are doomed in the post season. I said it before and I will say it again: IF the wings win the cup this year it will be almost as satisfying as the 04 Worlds Series, all of you bashers, whiners, complainers, disgruntled fans (not the ones with legit posts and backing their opinion up with facts, I have no problem with that) that are so willing to bail on "Their Team" will be back here saying all a long that you knew they could do it. Until I start combing the board and showing everyone the posts where you gave up on the team. Complain, fine that is great, you don't like Sammy, fine, you don't like Huds, fine! Just back it up with something concrete, not just: "Sammy sucks and if you can't see it you are blind watch him play" or "Huds is a waste, he can't do anything" or "Holland sucks he didn't get Feds" Opinion is not a fact!!!! Not my opinion not your opinion, if you want to share your opinion then be prepared for some one to disagree with you. My opinion is that Sammy, Huds, Lilja and others don't suck. I have had many discussions with posters on here that feel the exact opposite as me, those were great discussions. I have also had many flame wars over it, because people can't accept some one having a different opinion than them. It is the old if you don't agree with what the gov't is doing you aren't patriotic or you hate the US argument. Edit: Messed up my odds!

OR When Cleary lambasted Phanuef in the corner that led to the Draper goal immediately after, that to me was a much bigger play than anything Bert did. Bertuzzi was non existent in a Wings Jersey, for the most part, Markov is a solid blueliner and I think Stuart is a very comparable replacement. I don't think the loss of Bert or Markov or the combination of the two has anything to do with how far the wings make it, Markov was the #3 due to health of Kronwall, and even when Kronner was healthy Markov was #3.5, I understand what he added back there, and had the wings not added Stuart I would 100% agree with you.

Par for the course, the wings have drafted many, many talented Euros in the late rounds and I think that has a lot to due with the extended success. I am not saying having all Euros or even having Euros is the cause of the success, I am saying that the skill that they drafted late (because no one else was scouting as well/heavily in Europe) is far superior to what most other teams draft that late. BTW http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1989e.html D drafted ahead of Lids in 1989: Adam Bennett Doug Zmolek Jason Herter Jason Marshall Kevin Haller Jason Soules Jamie Heward Steve Bancroft Adam Foote* Dan Ratushny Mike Speer Patrice Brisebrios* Rick Corriveau Bob Boughner* Detroit Paul Laus Brent Thompson Bob Kellogg Veli-Pekka Kautonen Niklas Lidstrom #53 * Players I have ever heard of 3, 4 if you include Lids