Opie

My biggest issue with Franzen is the same one I had with a former Red Wing who happened to be Russian and happened to slack off quite a bit. The difference being that talent wise the Russian version was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Franzen. It is like Franzen decided to play down to his cap hit!

While I think the hit was on the cleaner side of borderline, I can see how skating the full width of the ice, and his arm position could be viewed as a unclean hit. I think he stayed on his feet ( a la Kronwall type hit) until contact was made, but he came from a long way to make that hit.

The problem with this theory (IMO) has always been that there are so few true power forwards. Sure there are a lot of BIG forwards, Mule, Thornton, etc... But how many true power forwards like Lucic are in the league? But yeah if the Wings could find a way to get a Lucic type power forward or two it would help immensely! Also if they could find a sniper or two that wouldn't be so bad, you know a guy who is (again) what we all thought Franzen would be. Hossa nets that shot in the third, why on earth Franzen went far side when he had the whole upper half of near side wide open, and then goes on to tell Crawford that he was lucky to make the save. BS. I am so tired of hearing the phrase: "The wings really need more from Franzen" or "The wings really need Franzen to get it going". He is starting to become a very replaceable piece living off of the legends of 3 or 4 playoffs ago.

This is where I see Howard's style or lack thereof, or combinations of styles, however you want to word it hurts him the most. He is a scrappy, hardworking goalie, that fights to make saves. That style put him in the out of position.

See again, semantics, I think of a sucker punch as an unexpected punch. Sure Dorsett thought he was going to get punched, but by big E who was in front of him, not Tootoo coming from the side of him, pushing him and then punching him. But that is my take, we see it differently. EDIT: I like your above post because Dino's punch is hilariously a sucker punch, I am not sure the guy he hit still knows who hit him!!!

And Hillbilly here is the hard part if that were Matt Cooke I would be screaming for 20 games!!!! Where does the benefit of the doubt stop? Look at Pronger, that guy got the benefit of the doubt for years, and then all of the sudden his dirty play caught up with him and he was getting suspensions and fines galore! I know this play is no Pronger style hit, or even a Cooke type hit, but if one of those guys does this 50% of people see it as dirty and 50% see it the same way as if it were Hall. Does the league try to teach the youngster a lesson, or do they let him off this time?

Wow, that is a tough call. You are right, not sure about the "throwing out the knee", He looked like a guy who doesn't hit a lot going for a neutral zone hip check and BADLY missed! I think his reputation saves him from a suspension or from a lengthy one. Plus it is hard to tell if he intended to do that.

So he didn't expect Tootoo to jump in, Toots pushed him off balance with the left and hit him with the right, as Dorsett was ready to go with E. Again you said he didn't expect Tootoo to jump in, and seeing as the push and punch took about a second and a half you think it wasn't a sucker punch. Agree to disagree on the semantics of sucker punch I guess.

I have never seen Tootoo play in a scoring role, and I agree with F.Michael here these are not the roll four lines and destroy you Wings anymore. I am not a big fan of that move though because guys like Nyquist and Tatar should be on the 2nd line before a guy like Toots IMO. But at this point in the season almost anything is worth a shot.

Yeah and that is just an unfortunate part of the league now, guys are not policing themselves, the league has handcuffed them. So borderline dirty can easily escalate to real dirty, and certain guys tend to live on real dirty already, so then they start stomping on people or whacking them with a stick to the head. Dmac in his prime, to me will forever be the perfect enforcer. I know, I know what about Probie, growing up in Maine I only saw Probie play the Leafs or Canadiens at my grandfathers once in a blue moon. I like what Dmac brought to the table, and I think Tootoo could be a similar guy. DMAC got dirty and cheap in retaliation for dirty and cheap, but he even squared up with Claude that one time, the other couple Claude may not have been ready, or had already assumed turtle position

See I think Tootoo should have got third man in. Dorsett wasn't even looking at Tootoo and that is a Toots special, remember we all used to complain about those when he was a Pred. If Tootoo and Wiz were scuffling in a pile and Dorsett sucker punched Tootoo you all would be screaming about how dirty Dorsett is. BUT because Tootoo has a winged wheel on his chest all is forgotten. I get that, but I don't personally subscribe to that logic. So people don't think I am just anti fighter, I have a very similar issue with Mule, he is lazy and can be real cheap and dirty, I feel that way about him now, and I will if he ever wears another jersey (doubtful), regardless if he goes on a 10 game tear and gets 14 or so points, it just furthers my point he could play like that every game, but chooses not to!

Well seeing as I have said multiple times I am WORRIED THAT HIS PLAY IS GETTING DIRTY, I APPRECIATE WHAT HE IS BRINGING TO THE TABLE SO FAR. And since the post you quoted was about the WIngs, NOT TOOTOO, I am not sure where you get any opinion on Tootoo from that quote??? I am all over the place??? Really, lets recap. You bag people who think he should score more and be like Dats and Brunner (even though no one actually said that), then you post he should be on the second line? Who is all over the place?? I don't dislike Tootoo, I don't even know him, I do have a distaste for his past playing style!

Besides the fact you ignored what I said and asked, your whole "you need to chill dude" is deflecting, instead of answering my questions or points, you deflect back to me. What do I want from him, nothing more than what he is providing, I said that too, but because you think I hate the guy you are misreading my posts. What I said my worry was is that he is starting to play a little too close to dirty for me. What if I told you not only do I not like the way Tootoo has played in the past with his antics that I also don't like the way Mule has played in the past with his antics? Does that clear up my point? Guys play a certain style, and to be successful you need a lot of styles on your team, I personally do not like dirty or lazy players and I especially hate divers, those are my Achilles heal, so to speak. I also am not a huge fight guy, I think there are times where it is needed in a game or a playoff series, but most of the fights in today's NHL are (and I am over simplifying here a bit) "You're an enforcer, I am too, we are on the ice at the same time, lets fight". I even went so far as to say (in the GDT) that he has far exceeded my expectations this year. I think for the better part of the season he has been a ball of fire, but I WORRY that he is starting to fall back to old and IMO dirty habits. I think he was lucky to not get a penalty when he drew the interference, I actually think the Wings got away with one there. I think he missed being the third man in by about .00000001 seconds, he dropped his gloves the same instant Dorsett and Ericcson did, IMO he was still third man in and he sucker punched Dorsett.

AHH here is the real point, the team is at a crossroads, find a way to make a push for the post season (unlikely) or find a way to keep people in the seats. Three things keep people in their seats, dazzling skill and offense (what the wings used to have), Winning (again, what the Wings used to have), or hard-nosed gritty hockey with some fisticuffs mixed in (what the Wings very rarely have).

So I disagree with your "Creates scoring chances every shift" but other than that you just describe a 4th line grinder. Which is what I expected of him, and until Helm can actually put the puck in the net with any form of consistency he is the same. Bigger question, what is your point?

Who said that, who on here has said that their expectations of him were to score like Dats or Brunner?? Please quote that person so we can all laugh at their stupidity for expecting Tootoo to be Dats or even Marty Lapointe for that matter. Otherwise post that you are making s*** up! Edit Spelling! Second edit: Ok so one post you tell us he is not a scorer and no one should expect that from him, and then in another you want him on the second line because of his wrister???????? WOW!

I disagree, I think the majority of his hits to start the season, while hard hits, where clean in timing and where he was hitting guys. I think his arms are starting to come up on his hits and I think he is starting to hit later and later. I didn't say I hated him, I said I worried about him. He can be a PIM machine and this team is not very good on the PK! I actually like the way his line is playing, I just worry he is going to start living up to his reputation. Perception is key here, you see his play one way (much like you saw my post as I hate him) and I see his play another way, worrisome on a team with bad special teams. You have no problem with him crossing the line apparently, however I do. That is where the difference lies. I think he far exceeded my expectations, but that doesn't mean I don't worry long term. Especially seeing as I Think his play is starting to resemble his play in seasons past. Not denying his work ethic, but his decision making and discipline leave something to be desired. IMO

People love to see nasty hits and fights, he has more fights this year than almost the entire team last year, people have been longing for this kind of play in a Winged Wheel since Downey left. The fact he provides very few other attributes is not a concern. Not my cup of tea, but no denying the fact I am in the minority on that.

My post from game day thread: Big E looked like he wanted to handle Dorsett too. Gloves were off, and then the look on his face when Tootoo Jumped in was like "WTF". This is one of the reasons I worried about Tootoo, he was playing pretty disciplined hockey at the start of the season. He is starting to unwind a little, the interference penalty he drew was not interference and was a Dive/Acting job by him. The little punk is starting to come out in him(edit), his hits seem to be getting closer and closer to borderline every game. I appreciate the fact he thought he was jumping to the aid of a player, and he probably thinks he is the only one that can throw down on this team, given his perspective as a tough guy on a division opponent. But it was a bad play that cost the team a goal, albeit a weird goal because of the way the puck died on the deflection right in front of Umberger's stick with Howie in position to save the original shot/deflection.

Big E looked like he wanted to handle Dorsett too. Gloves were off, and then the look on his face when Tootoo Jumped in was like "WTF". This is one of the reasons I worried about Tootoo, he was playing pretty disciplined hockey at the start of the season. He is starting to unwind a little, the interference penalty he drew was not interference and was a Dive/Acting job by him. The little punk is starting to come out in him (edit), his hits seem to be getting closer and closer to borderline every game. I appreciate the fact he thought he was jumping to the aid of a player, and he probably thinks he is the only one that can throw down on this team, given his perspective as a tough guy on a division opponent. But it was a bad play that cost the team a goal, albeit a weird goal because of the way the puck died on the deflection right in front of Umberger's stick with Howie in position to save the original shot/deflection.

Let's not also forget Chris Simon did it too!

Not trying to pick sides, but there is specific mention in the rule book that Hossa's play while unfortunate, is not a penalty because of shot follow through. Stomping whether intentional, due to the extreme height of Pronger, trying to gain balance, or unintentional is a penalty. There are no exceptions to the rule, stomping on another player is a penalty. It is however subject to referee discretion. I am torn on this case with Cooke, I have a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt. But when watching the play not in Slow Motion it does not look callous. I think it warranted a few minutes in the sin bin but I am not sure it warrants a suspension.

To clarify I mean I wouldn't trust to behave in a mature manor, not just in general.

If my child did that on any other night(let alone senior night), there is no way in hell he would be going to senior prom, or any senior based functions, including post graduation activities or parties. You want to behave like spoiled little child and act like an embarrassment and have no class. Then I simply cannot trust you in any situation. And until I can trust you again, no spring sports, no school activities. To school and home that is it!! The problem here is his dad/mom is probably the one in his ear telling him he is Patty Roy reincarnate. People used to say "Hockey Parents are the worst they are so competitive". I always thought hockey parents got a bad rep, because as a former educator and coach, all sports have numerous parents who think their child is the best and have no issue telling the coach, other coaches, teachers, parents, the french fry guy or anyone who will listen to how great their child is. Remember this kid is a product of the environment he grew up in, I would assume his mom or dad are very proud of him right now.

Yeah they all deserve top 6 minutes. (EDIT:Meant that some what sarcastically) But what difference does Sammy make? He shoots a lot and plays decent D. I do imagine though that groin injuries will play a major role in this season. So I see him playing around 15-20 games for the Wings, being the first call up.