Opie

Sammy, Quincey/Meech, 2nd rounder for Rolston?

I will take Bab's opinion over yours, but that is just me!

Not liking to play against a guy when he is on another team but liking him when he is on your team, is different than not liking a guy for the way he plays. Cheli is a great example of a on the edge player, he has some slight stick work and tricks he uses. He doesn't take a full on 5 stride run at a guy. Not sure if I explained myself well enough. My explanation: (should read as my guess) We now know what happens to players when they get elbowed in the head (medically speaking) when Howe did it, no one knew the severity of concussions and so on. Also player equipment, like shoulder and elbow pads, have come a long way, not only does the hitter feel less of the impact they have a hard exterior shell making them almost lethal.

You couldn't be any further from the truth, based on simple logic arguments your absolute truth is proven wrong by the fact I never liked Avery, and I hate Tootoo, Ruutu, and you too. Just kidding I don't hate you I just used that for the rhyme! I could not agree more if I tried!!!!

It is funny because you don't really see that much improvement to the offensive side of his game (it was damn good to start with), but you can almost mark the days on the calendar as you watch him steadily improve all aspects of his game. He is a great defensive forward, has a very deft poke check, and has really started to hit a lot more this year. Now I am not saying he is a wrecking ball out there but this year his hits have got to be way up from last season. DZH have proven themselves to be late draft gold, same with Lids. Flip, Mule, Huds could all do the same thing. Cleary has found a system that fits his work ethic and style of play. And then you have Draper being Draper, so I would take a young guy who is a great skater and do the red wings locker room thing they do, sit him right next to Drapes and let Drapes mentor the young man (for the next 3 years). The point to this last part, signing Z after July, locking cleary for 4 years at around 8+, Let the Youngsters keep developing and pretty soon, Dats and Z will be the talk of the league because you can't ignore success (well the NHL maybe able to!), this team has the potential to be a classic red wings team.

Then why has his coach publicly backed his play, and has said that Dats needs to shoot more, or Flip and Cleary need to go to the front of the net more, yet Babs has not mentioned a word about Sammy needing to shoot less, pass more. But Yzermaniac and the rest of you know so much about hockey and evaluate players so flawlessly which NHL team is it that you work for again?, oh you don't, which AHL team was it?, oh, Juniors?, uh huh, ECHL?, nope not that one either, High school, not so much huh, Pee wee's. That is it you are a scout for you local Pee Wee team, nice! Do you think they need a GM I am looking for a new job! I have the same amount of experience as you do so I should be a shoe in!!!

NO! Bertuzzi attacked a man from behind sucker punched him while in the midst of tackling him. McCarty Stood toe to toe with Lemiuex!! But keep trying!

Nope I got it!!!

100% agreed, you will piss someone off and you should have to deal with getting punched in the mug a couple of times. But if some one just owned you, or you are losing 5-1(not sure the score at the time of the hit this is an example), you should also expect to have some one rub it in your face. If you don't like it square off with him, duel it out. But either way a run is uncalled for. Personally I like to talk a little trash during sports, one of my friends I play Volleyball with hates it with a passion and asks me to stop all of the time. If we are playing with a bunch of his friends, I try to stop so as not to piss off his friends. But by shutting my trap, as he so succinctly put it, I mess up my own game. Here is the point, I know that if I get blocked or a guy completely owns me I am going to hear it right back, yet if we are destroying a team, they shut up and deal with it. Now there is no fighting in volleyball so instead of fighting if you don't like what I am saying you try to hit me in the face with a spiked ball. Retaliation is going to come, I agree with you, Kovie should have expected and not backed down to a fight if he wants to taunt the bench, what he should not have to expect is a knee on knee hit after escaping what would have been a clean hard hit.

Toby, not trying to argue with you about what your eyes saw(BTW I hate people that do that, no you saw this!), just stating I have a different opinion. As you watch the second replay, about 49-54 second mark of the video, I saw his knee turn out then he glides into Kovie. Now could it have been him skating and trying to balance, turn, whatever sure, but given his reputation and the fact that the elbow went out at about the same time, I tend to believe he had intent there.

Listen I like to stick up for the wings players as much as I can, but if some one gets injured every season, be it sprained big toe, pulled groin, separated shoulder, Torn MCL, ingrown fingernail, they are by logical process an injury prone player. Having said that, I am not saying ship the guy off, he was one of the top 3 d men on this team, and is showing signs of being a very good dman. However if he is slow to come back from this the wings have to be very weary of him. He is signed until 2012, and that is a long time if he is going to miss an average of 20-25 games a year.

umm, he checked the man using solely his knee and his elbow, his body completely missed Kovie, and seeing as your body is directly over you knee the only way to hit him with the knee and miss with the body would be to stick his knee out. Did he do it with intent to injure, not so sure, I think his intent was to make up for the fact that by taking that run at him Ruutu put himself out of position, and did the only thing he had left, stick out body parts to try and hit him. Either way no excuse for that knee on knee hit! How come no one took a run at AO the other day then? He was jawing at Malkin and the bench, and he took a run at Malkin. Yet no one try to run him through the boards!?

Did any of you see the AHL all star game. I watched the first half of the game, and during that part they mentioned that Ken was the honorary captain of the team, and that his professional hockey career started as a player for Binghamton. They also mentioned that he has become one of the best GM's. I also saw some really decent puck movement from Ericsson last night too.

Chelios never ran away from or turtled from a situation that his dirty play created. Chelios was never considered dirty because he took runs at people. He was a Scott Stevens (aggressive wise) player who had some damn dirty stick work. Tootoo takes a run at a player, and then usually does one of two things when it comes time to pay the piper, sucker punch the guy while skating away from them, or taking a hit and then acting and crying like a baby on the ice to make it look like he is so hurt. s*** I would rather he Turtle take a couple of punches to the head. At least then he wouldn't be a grade A P**sy.

That was a dirty punch, Robidas (right?) was coming over to square off with him and he sucker punches him with a glove on. NO thanks I hate dislike this guy even more now!!! Hard to hate someone you don't know!

He provides nothing that the wings need, he is dirty, cheap, and a huge defensive liability. As stated in another thread by another poster, there is a reason why the wings like Downey, he will fight and hit, but he does it when it doesn't cost the wings a goal or a game. Tootoo just does whatever when ever, he is a dirty little Turtle wanna be!

Wow that made things so much clearer, I have no idea why I never thought of that logic. Those are nice red sunglasses, BTW.

Good thing you brought it back on track. I kid, I kid!

Dude, Joe T wanted nothing more than to be a Bruin his entire career, so he said. His heros are guys like Sakic, Yzerman. Z may say in the media that he wants nothing more than to be the next Steve Yzerman, Nick Lidstrom, but what he says and what happens are two different things especially with the salary cap. He may say he is willing to play for a discount but what if to him a discount is 8.5 for 7 years. The wings think he should get 7 for 7 (completley hypothetical) the two realize at about Jan next year that there is no way he is coming back. You mean to tell me that because the wings were built* on loyalty and family dynamics before the cap that he two parties will find middle ground. None of us are saying that we want Z traded, but it is a possibility, so for those of you who have nothing better to add to the thread than think it terms of the average athlete and pro organization: Loyalty is a great way to take media pressure off of you. Again I restate: Johnny damon and Pedro Martinez said they would not leave Boston after their contracts, that Boston was their home. That a home town discount would be given to the Red Sox, and then went to the Highest bidder promptly right after. One of them went to the ultimate of enemies. There is no longer loyalty in pro sports!!!!! If their was their would be no need for free agency! Again no one is saying they should or will get rid of Z, but he is a free agent in a year and a half and as stated is one of the top talents in the league, those guys are hard to keep around on the cheap. He will easily get an offer for over 8 for more than 7 years from another team, if not more. For all of us fans to assume he should play for less considering he is one of the elite players in the game and is currently severely underpaid. You don't think he wants a little bit more money and maybe a long term deal for security. Remember he is getting serious with his G/F and now will have to consider what he may have for a family in 5 years! * by definition of the word built it would have to be past or future tense, been built or to be built, they can't be in the process of built! And when they were built they didn't have a player leave to ANA for simialr money!

A little more Theoritical Logic for the both of you: Follow along closely this may get confusing because the day I read it, it sure as hell confused me. Mind you this is pre-Crosby pre-Ovechkin Joe Thornton From Boston to SJ for Marco Sturm Wayne Primeau Brad Stuart Not exactly Zetterberg for Ovechkin is it!!!!!! The point ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE especially in a salary cap world!

Again the shut your mouth if you disagree with me approach, how can you in one breath tell him that people are entiltled to their opinion but he isn't, it is "OUR" board but he is not apart of it. Do you not see how you are contradicting yourself. If he was on here agreeing with you would you quote his posts with QFT or is it because he disagrees with you that you feel the right, need, desire to tell him how to post. YET he is not allwed to tell people who are basing their opinions on absolutely nothing, the facts or ask them to post things that are not completley baseless. Remember this board is not lived in a miopic one thread at a time view, these threads and posts reference all across the board from forum to forum thread to thread. So for you to expect that every time some one opens a thread they are going to completely disregard anything from another is ignorance. And before you take that as an insult look up the word ignorance, by no means am I calling you dumb or stupid. I have seen your posts and you do offer informative posts, but I see you spending a lot of time following GS&T around griping with him trying to create flame wars. Did he kick your dog, dawg? Did he s*** in you Cheerios once? GS&T I told you time and time again to stop doing that. Whatever your reasons are they are yours. He and I disagree on most every topic on this board, yet I have not once got in an argument or flame war with him. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but is it too much to ask that it be an informed opinon instead of one based on hatred for one team or undevoted love for another! Does GS&T go overboard, of course we all do from time to time, check out the Sammy threads you will see times where it looks like I lost my mind in his defense. A lot of that comes from the interaction and dealing with many posts. Also, notice the Homer thing has a way of recycling from thread to thread much like the use of the phrase "Lazy and sucks"!

Very valid points, and as I said in my other post I am not arguing with you in any way shape or form. I don't get caught up in the mere fluff, what bothers me and why I stepped into this conversation, is that people are talking about a huge conspiracy theory a foot, yet they have no evidence, and as I said earlier if he had signed with Boston, Toronto, Pheonix, St. Louis, you get my point basically any where but the Ducks (simply because they were the last team to "steal the cup away" from Detroit) no one would have had one bit of issue with it. Same with the Penner offer sheet, there were people here saying it is great because it happened to the Ducks. No one said s*** when it was Vanek and the Sabres he tried it with. However if this were a Red Wings player coming back, or getting scoop up off of an offer sheet this place would freak out. That is what makes them Homers (not a term I throw around a lot), not the fact that this move bothers them, as I think it is complete bs that it is allowed, but hey if the league allows it, why the hell not, it was smart on Burke's part like the offer sheet was smart on Lowe's part. If Ken Holland was the first to do it, people who be praising him, holy crap he got Penner on an offer sheet Ken is a genius, that is what makes it homerism. If you can't live by the expression what is good for the goose is good for the gander don't ***** (not you NFM, obviously). It is like not voting and then complaining about how much Bush sucks, too bad. Same here if you don't like it because of the team he ended up on, then too bad. Because most people on this forum want Forsberg, is Forsberg not effectively doing the same thing, yeah a busted up foot is more obvious. But with Selanne he was (borrowing from GS&T) mentally injured if you will, he was trying to decide. We have no idea what has been going on in his life, he could have lost his mother, wife diagnosed with Cancer, Child got hurt, or maybe he just really didn't think he had the same drive anymore. But because no one knows those things they jumped to it is a conspiracy against the wings, which they don't know either. But you are right, there is no point because it is the internet and people hide behind the guise of internet tough guy. I just try to do my part to educate, because that is what happened for me when I joined this board, people like Matt helped share a lot of knowledge when I started coming here. I was a Red Wings fan but had no clue about what went on with things. I will still ask UFA or Salary cap questions here, and usually get a great informative answer. I am not trying to play anyone's dad, just trying to return the favor people did for me. However, in today's society being wrong is not something American's like to admit!

People are basing it off of the fact that other players have signed early, or a lack of hockey knowledge. Based on the fact that they signed Dats relatively quickly and the fact that offer sheets(granted down the road) can scoop up coveted players, I want it done as soon as possible, which would be 7/1/08 12:00:01. Will that happen, most likely not, I doubt he takes their first offer, there will be meetings and negotiations up until probably the following January (much like Dats). Holland will (technically) have to save money this summer, because anyone he signs this year will impact the ability to sign him during the year or the next off season. For example: if for some unbelievable reason Holland gets Hossa at the deadline, then this offseason he is looking to sign Hossa, he has to weigh the options a)pay Hossa a lot this summer and lose Z next year or B)not pay Hossa and retain Z. I know that was what I referenced in saying they need to save money to sign Z, not necessarily this summer but this summer Holland needs to save money (in cap space) to sign him next year. Not sure if that made any sense at all!

True, so then I should just sit here and watch people spread pure lies, sorry wrong choice of words, things that they have no way of proving true, thus creating more uninformed fans thus creating more posters who post out of ignorance and create more ignorant fans on this board. Thus making this board nothing more than a large recycling bin for posts and threads. Why even bother coming onto the board then. NFM you may or may not have been on here back in the day, I am not going to look up your join date, which could be wrong anyways depending if you joined when it was still Ikonboard software or not. This board used to be and sometimes still is a great source of information, especially for some one like me who lives in NH or people who live in other parts of the world. Now it is turning into nothing more than the ESPN boards. Not arguing with you here, however you logic is that they can have their opinion, but I or GS&T cannot express our opinions or known facts to contradict? If their opinion is that Forsberg is a Molestor (again check the Forsberg thread) I should sit here and not express that they are completely full of Bulls***, but that person is allowed to say whatever they want? Can you see how I get easily confused with that logic, I know you are mostly talking to GS&T but I dealt with the same s*** when I was the only one defending Sammy in the threads upon threads that trashed him, and it seems like you are just playing peace officer. However don't you see a little irony in the fact you are telling GS&T to keep his opinion to himself because these people are entitled to express their opinion? That is like Military intelligence or Pretty Ugly, oxymorons, at least that is my opinion I welcome yours. (See I used to write we welcome yours, but apparently fewer and fewer of us tolerate opinions.) Edit to your Edit: No I was talking to everyone, I just didn't want to group GS&T in with me if he didn't agree, that is why I mentioned his name.

I say yes they are favorites and here is why think that: Last year he was their best offensive weapon and there is no denying his offensive abilities. This year their defense is stingier and their offense suck goat balls, now they bring in a guy who is offensively gifted and is only missing two guys from last years roster, Penner and MacDonald, so chemistry should not be an issue. The only issue is how long it takes Teemu to be in game shape. The one way that I see this as a plus for the wings, is that now one goon will have to ride the pine with Teemu in the building. And he is not going to wreck people out there.