Opie

This thread needs to be killed, fast and mercilessly. You are no longer discussing the facts or hockey at all you are discussing who meant and said what when they said it. You are arguing over who called who names, who means what when they say this, and what the other person interprets from what you wrote, on and on. Just agree to disagree. 134096- GS&T is saying that in the future if Dats struggles continue and the team is struggling in secondary scoring he thinks it would help the team to move Dats back to center. He is not comparing the players he is solely talking about Dats and what appears to be his more comfortable position (I prefer doggie, oh sorry wrong forum). GS&T- You are using two very big if's in you statements, The team is winning now and Dats is putting up points on the score sheet. You may prefer they land in a different column, but either way he is putting up points and helping this team to a 13-3-1 record so far. You both appear to be getting really worked up over this, and as this has happened to me in the past, I suggest stepping away from this thread, maybe even the boards for a while, let it cool down and move on. Or IGNORE THE OTHER PERSON.

I agree I wasn't calling him a bust just saying I could see how some would view it that way.

Dude, he did that s*** on a Det team that had captain class on it, Steve Yzerman, and guys like Lids, Draper, hell even Cheli wouldn't stoop that low, and he still did it in Det. I was wrong about him being dirty, but I never lost my sense that he was classless, and I don't ever expect that to change, especially now after winning an arbitration and getting paid, this dude's ego will be astronomical and he will feel untouchable until some one puts him down on the ice. I am not condoning that type of play by Belak or anyone else, just saying no player in the world is going to make Sean Avery class it up a little. Not happening. Because as soon as NYR get tired of his antics someone else will be waiting in the wings to sign or trade for him.

I really don't think Hype should be a factor in the HHOF, in whether or not he was a bust I think it is a mandatory category. The HHOF should be awarded on merit, what the player did to deserve to be there. Hype shouldn't be the only criteria to be used when considering him a bust though either, draft position should have something to do with it. Since Lindros was drafted high and was expected to do unbelievable things, I guess he didn't live up to those expectations long term. I have a hard time labeling a guy that did what he did a bust though, far from it actually. But I can see how some one could consider him a bust. It would have been fun though to see what he could have done if he had not had concussion issues. Imagine him playing 10-15 years at that level of competition, but then again a guy who plays that style of physical hockey is going to get injured often and usually pretty severely.

GS&T, You and I usually have some pretty good debates, but in this case I find it funny that you can completely ignore other's opinion or call it blatantly false, yet at the same time telling people that you make up your own mind and can develop your own opinions, yet others can't?? And before you take me to school, you say you KNOW no one will get 60 goals, well did anyone think Gretzky would do what he did before he did it. There are no facts available that tell you what the outcome of the season will be. So we are all arguing opinions. Next week the roles could reverse, teams could start focusing on Z and the next thing you know dats has 6 goals in 5 games. We are 17 games in, the team is 13-3-1, Dats is among the league leaders in assists, Z is among league leaders in points and goals, Osgood is among the league leaders in wins. This team has better output and better stats from more players than that ducks team that in other threads you tell me is so talented, so why the worry if the ducks are so talented and the wings players are putting up better numbers? Would I like to see Dats having a similar or same season as Z, yeah sure, but at this point in time with the way things are working out and going well why should I, you, or anyone say, If Dats doesn't start scoring the wings will be in trouble, when by using your own stats he has 2 goals and the team is 13-3-1. I also noticed in one of your first posts you said you were looking at goals and goals alone, that was your worry. Well my friend you and I both know that you can not judge a team, player, line, or coach by just goals scored. Joe Thornton has become a pretty damn good player, elite IMO, without scoring a ton of goals and he has linemates that are a hell of a lot worse than Z and homer.

EVA ARE YOU ON CRACK: you think that a first year player takes time to develop and get used to the NHL game. You must be high everyone on here knows that when a player steps onto the ice they should be an elite NHL player with if they are going to be deserved of the winged wheel. Please you need to raise your expectations of players if you're going to be a wings fan, next you will tell me that you are actually happy with the year Dats is having!! /sarcasm Edit clarity

Datsyuk is "Sagging" because you guys are not happy unless you are bitching an moaning. Pure and simple. On a very good line you have a set up man, a scorer and a mucker. As a line they are scoring at a torid pace. One wing leads the league in goals and the other is 2 assists away from leading and at one point in time was leading the league and you guys still complain or find something to worry about. Dats is a playmaker out of the mode of Igor Larinov, yes he is flashy and yes he can score, but if he dekes out half of the team and then sets up a beautiful goal what is the problem. And the argument that teams will focus on Z is down right foolish. Do any of you honestly think that a coach in the NHL is going to say to his guys "Let Datsyuk do whatever he wants with the puck in his hands and cover Zetterberg." NO!!! They are successful together because one is shooting lights out and the other is a passing genius. That is why you don't trade Dats for Vinny L. Another shooter on that line breaks up the chemistry. (not to bring up another thread) Dats is shooting more than ever now, that is why his shooting percentage is way down. He used to wait for the perfect shot and angle and then he would score on more of his shots. Pretty soon he will be able to fake the pass and take the shot and have better looks. You guys are worried about dats season, he has 16 points in 16 games, he is a major reason why Zetterberg is having the season he is having. If they win the cup and dats goes 10/90 and has a 100 point season are you seriously going ***** and moan and say that Dats had a horrible season. If so, check in with the local mental hospital. IF IT AINT BROKE DON"T FIX IT!!!

That goal was the definition of NIFTY!!!! Great fake, and nice shot. Did you guys notice how much time dats spent going to the net. I only bring it up here because at the end of Z's NIFTY goal dats ran through Leclair, not in front of, not behind, not around, but DATS WENT THROUGH LECLAIR. Z and Dats are rubbing off on Homer but it looks like Homer maybe rubbing off on them a little too!!!

A team like Nashville could trade half of it's team away and still keep their salaries on the books and actually make the cap floor if not maybe even go above it.

I think I got Lafontaine on the Brain after seeing his stats I meant Ciccarrelli and wrote Lafontaine. My bad, that was just a brain fart. My point was exactly what you guys are saying though, I loved Neely, but his numbers were not HOF worthy. When you ask if a guy is HOF material you compare him to the guys in the hall, not the guys who are not in it. So if you look at Lindros and Neely Lindros becomes HHOF material. I personally don't think either belong, but I believe Ciccarrelli and Anderson belong however they are snubbed.

So didn't his years of: 20g - 42a - 62pts 19g - 33a - 52pts I hate how much of a detriment this guy was to the wings!!!! [/sarcasm]

I think that if Neely made it Lindros should however if Lafontaine doesn't he shouldn't, which is quite the conundrum because Lafontaine had better numbers (total not ppg) than Neely yet he is not in the hall.

Press conference. http://www.boston.com/partners/worldnow/ne...continuous=true He sounds half asleep in that entire interview, he is a very vibrant young man who usually conducts interviews with a lot of energy. Hopefully he gets back on the ice soon.

My bad wingslogo19, I thought you were serious as some people on here have been! BTW GS&T I could really give a crap about what happens to Bert in the suit and what he pays out, just stating an opinion.

GS&T I think some where along the line we got on different pages, we actually agree on a lot of things you just wwrote however in my explanation of why I thought Bert was to blame, you and I got into a discussion about the finite details of the situation. I am not blaming Bert for wanting to go after Moore, the way he did it is where my problem lies. From behind is bush league and cheap. I am not disagreeing with you about anything Bert has done after the incident, he should be fighting and his lawyer is doing his job. My comments were geared towards those who were saying that the pig pile broke his neck. That Bert wasn't at fault. Also, Lemieux knew mac was coming after him, it was in the papers, Mac squared off with him and did not sucker punch him. Lemieux knew what was coming because if the roles were reversed he would have done the same, only I bet Turtle would have done it from behind. My point about the glove and I should have made it clearer but work got in the way for a minute, was that he never took it as a fight it was a beating, he was just going at him and not thinking. (IMO) No one is saying Bert can't work the rest of his life, being a pro athlete is a privilege not a right, he could still do ads, marketing, become a pro bass fisherman, whatever else he wanted, but he took away someone's right to do what he loves and the same should be done to Bert, IMO. As for Heatley his actions where not acted out on the ice, nor was it illegal, therefore in my mind the league has no grounds to punish Heatley at all. Your fine line between a fighter getting beat up and put in a coma is dis proven by the fact that how many fighters have been put in a coma in MMA. BTW fast becoming my favorite sport to watch. The fines or payments or whether or not Bert has paid the piper is an opinion and just like Bert and Moore, they disagreed on whether or not Moore paid the price, you and I have a difference of opinions. I fine what Bert did less severe than Boulerice (in juniors) Mcsorely, or Simon but not by a hell of a lot. But he did use his hands not a weapon. Yes I agree it is a horrible set of circumstances, but he put himself in that spot.

The Seminole tribes in Florida stood up for the university of South Florida when the State government wanted to abolish the use of the Seminole as a mascot. I think it should be up to the people of the area that are of that decent. I agree with esteef only the Redskins is degrading. I can see how some would find Indian as opposed to native American offensive but Black Hawks and Fighting Souix are actually considered by some in the tribes to be compliments.

GS&T you think Neidermayer is more important than Teemu, I use my quote from about 3 other threads on this topic. Selanne and Penner being gone means the loss of the #1 & #2 goal scorers, they both ranked top 3 in most offensive categories. Neidermayer, while a talented offensive defensman, he will not be able to create the offense that Selanne could. Selanne had 94 points last year and 90 the year before. If Neidermayer can replace that then we have just found the best defenseman to ever play the game!

Try reading a little closer, both Eva and I said his neck broke WHEN HE HIT THE ICE WITH A 245 POUND MAN ON HIS BACK DRIVING A FOREARM INTO THE BACK OF HIS HEAD. The punch knocked him out, he fell limply to the ground with his head in a downward position, as if his chin was touching his chest, the top of his head hit the ice first and then a grown man landed on top of him. His head then bounced off of the ice, and returned to normal position as the pig pile ensued! Sorry for speaking for you Eva.

I would say the wings have 4 proven offensive talents Dats, Z, Ralf,and Lids I never said they had more than that. Cleary and Sammy are not proven offensive players, and neither is Homer. Homer has proven that Z and Dats can make any one a goal scorer, not that he can create on his own. Last year a lot of these guys benefited from the fact that Teemu had an MVP type season. He was doing the set up work and a lot of the scoring Bertuzzi no longer a proven scorer, he is now proven he is an injured commodity. Kunits, please dude that is like saying Sammy is a proven scorer, Sammy is a good role player but that is it. Perry, seriously proven offensive player. Getzlaf, again I said proven. McDonald I will give you. Pahlson, when I say proven I mean a player who can go out and produce a 60+ point season Schneider (even though most of his points are ppa and a) and Pronger (not as good offensively as Lids or Ralf) sure. R. Neidermayer he is as proven a scorer as Homer. According to the players you listed and what they have done you would have considered Jim Carrey a hall of fame goaltender. One or two years can easily be a fluke, or can be that a guy is benefiting from a world class player on their line. One year does not make a guy a proven scorer, just ask this board if they think Sammy is a proven offensive talent. He has done as much in the last two years as half of the guys you listed. I said this when the other thread went around and you all jumped on me: Teemu and Penner took with them the following production ( I am not calling Penner proven by any means either) Selanne and Penner are going to be considered - numbers and Bertuzzi and Schneids will be + Anaheim's gains from Bert and Schneids= Goals + 13 -77 = loss of 64 Assists + 43 - 62 loss of 19 Points + 56 - 139 loss of 83 PPG + 2 - 34 loss of 32 PPA + 30 - 30 Even (thanks solely to Schneids) GP + 76 - 164 Loss of 98 (both players played in all 82 and were #1 and #2 scorers goal wise) They will have to find a way to make up 64 goals included in that are 25 ppg. This team is not the same team without Teemu, I would venture that his return is more important than Neids.

If Rory almost made it that tells you that the All-Star game is nothing more than a popularity and name recognition contest.

What talent is still there? They are missing arguably their top 3 offensive contributors from last season, one (neids) will be back, another (selanne) may come back, maybe with them, maybe not, the other (penner) they will not get back. This team is severely lacking offensively proven talent. Hence the fact that they have a hard damn time scoring more than 3 goals a game.

If Lindros does not ask to be traded the lanch never get Roy (and to a lesser degree Keane). Jocelyn Thibault were traded for Roy, they don't get T-Bow with out the draft choice from Philly! Not that this has anything to do with the topic though, but just another thing to think about when you realize what Philly gave up to get him.

GS&T There is definitely something different in the way Mac did it and Bert did, Mac looked Lemieux in the eye. That is a massive difference. Also when Mac fought Turtle he hit him once with a glove on and then dropped them, Bert continued to hit Moore with gloves on. Bert was obvious, if his intentions were not to make him miss games and severely injure him than why smack him in the face from behind and ride him to the ground. Why not catch up to him, grab him and turn him around? Like happens so many times in the NHL. I was wrong on how many times he fought, he only fought once that game, so because Bert thought that wasn't enough he can ambush a guy from behind? No I think not. Moore would not have been in Bert's crotch if Bert faced off with him instead of jumping him from behind, if you watch the video closely as Moore is heading to the ice Bert delivers a nice forearm to the back of his head as well. Also those of you who think the pile on broke his neck LOOK CLOSELY AT THE VIDEO as Eva said his neck was only in a position to be broken was when Bert fell on him (with a forearm shiver), after that his head bounced of the ice and then he was face down as the pile happened, his neck was broken BY BERTUZZI!!!!!!!! Bert is responsible and should be paying for it with his wallet and career. If you end some one's career with that kind of attack yours should be ended as well!!!! Boulerice should be gone he ended a career with a stick swing, McSorley should have been out as long as Brashaer was, Simon same thing, same with Randy Jones. I am also the guy who roots for the Pats and thinks Harrison should never play again because he used Roids. But hey that is just me!!

Big deal, their defense is not their biggest problem right now. Yeah he makes their D better, BFD, they need scoring. They have managed >3 goals in 5 times and 2 of them are against the yotes and 2 times (once against the yotes) it was in a loss. If they got Selanne back then I would be more worried, but with Neidermayer back maybe they only give up 4 to the Yotes, I guess that would give them one more W.

I think it is like baseball when you trade a player Arod for example, the Yankees only had to pay half of his salary Texas picked up the other half. I assume that is what he is referring to, because I believe right now if you trade a guy his whole salary goes with.