Opie

I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened. It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

I haven't seen Aubin so I really can't say. If we were in the league I may have been able to trade a goalie with you seeing as I have Kipper, Nabby, and Budja. My D is Lids, Ralf, Zhitnik, Boucher and my offense is going to struggle although I did pick up Penner off of Waivers and have Satan, E. Staal, Demitra, and Sykora. But I could really use some help. The last 3 fantasy leagues I have joined I drafted 10 of 10, 12 of 12, 9 of 12, and my BBall one hasn't drafted yet so I will probably be 12 of 12 again.

I would be very surprised if he is picked up. This move by LA did not surprise me, in Manchester (my home town)they have 2 very quality goalies. Are they going to be top notch NHLers, who really knows, but LaBarberra, who right now to me is better than Clouts on his top day, they also have Fukufuji (not sold on him personally) and Brust is not too shabby, haven't seen a lot of him because it seems like LaBarberra never sits.

First off great post I agree and if this team had Lang back I would have no issue with them signing up a Downey type guy. Not that my opinion matters to the wings at all. But you are telling me that having an enforcer helped the Ducks, just not in the playoffs? Correct? ( just curious didn't want to miss read your post) I agree that having an enforcer doesn't hurt the team, I am saying my opinion is that this team needs to focus on other aspects. I for one have never come out and said people who want fighters are idiots, actually it is usually the opposite. Those of us who would rather see some one other than an enforcer get ragged on, and are called things like "Anti-realistic"or are told that the wings didn't win the cup because they didn't have an enforcer. More often than not I find myself defending my opinion in these debates. Not attacking the fighters. It is taken as attacking when I pose a question like, how does an enforcer help the team. It seems as soon as an enforcer type player is signed by another team or clears waivers, this place goes into a tizzie about how that was the missing piece to the cup. It is not stated as "I would have loved to have that guy" or it starts that way and then the arguing back and forth begins. Inevitably someone brings up the Philly game last year, and my standard response is what happen to Philly and then that is when the s*** storm happens, because some people on here can not articulate a response to it. Not all! Hey if you think the wings need an enforcer/fighter more power to you, just don't jump down my throat because I don't and then expect me to post back "Oh, you are so right I changed my mind." Because no matter what my opinion you (like me) won't change yours. And the more I think about this I would actually like to have Downey in the top 12 as long as it is over Maltby. That will probably be the least popular thing I have ever typed, but I as I think about it, Downey would provide more of what people like about Maltby, the antagonizer, plus he will fight, and the 4-6 goals 10 pts Maltby would get are replaceable. Plus Mule, Z, Dats, Cleary, Drake can all kill penalties. So I guess maybe you have swayed my opinion. Congrats!

Not to mention so incredibly easy some times!!! Not that this helps, but I had a hip flexor injury, it kept me out of soccer camp for about an afternoon. Not the most painful injury but an uncomfortable one, however I have to assume that a professional athlete will be able to deal with discomfort quite easily. They will probably sit him just to make sure he heals well.

We should have started discussing this topic like this from the start it wouldn't have been the Dead horse argument of I want him, yeah well I don't. Much more intellectual this way! EDIT: Gordie the "Won't stop anything" argument is not so much in rebuttal to you, it is the people who keep posting that it is either Downey or watching Dats and Z get run over all of the time. If people stop saying that is the reason for him I will stop saying "he won't stop anything".

Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup. Gordie: you and I have accepted each others opinions and while we don't see eye to eye, I think we have gone as far as we can with this argument. So this post is not in retort to yours. This team needs another top 6 forward badly. Apparently that is not going to happen anytime soon, so therefore I worry about scoring goals. Dats and Z cannot score 70+ goals a piece, so when you take a guy out of the line up to put in a Downey you are taking away even more goals from this team. I don't want to speak for Eva or NN, however I think we are all saying that this team needs to put pucks in the back of the net more than they need an enforcer right now. Now if that enforcer could bring 10-15 goals or maybe 20pts I would be happy as hell to have them on the team. Downey does not provide that. The Red Wings need a top six forward. Almost the entire second line is gone. People may have thought Lang to be lazy and suck, however he scored goals and got assists, to the tune of 52 points. Those points need to be replaced and Downey will not help that. I would love to think that Huds, Grigs, Flip, and Mule will be able to do that, but they haven't proven they will. So my thought process is this: For this team this year right now scoring goals is more important than exacting revenge for a dirty hit. I understand the argument that a dirty hit could very well cost the wings Z or Dats. However I don't think Downey is going to stop Tootoo or Hartnell, etc. from taking that shot. Look at Boogard did Downey slow him down at all the other night? Nope, not one bit.

I think it is an issue with the sport not being American by nature. Bare with me here: American's (not all) tend to be very patriotic and some people will only buy a Chevy or Ford because they are American made. I think that same reasoning can be used for why some sports have such a hard time taking hold here. Baseball, Football, Basketball, were all invented in the US, and have a lot more fans and supporters than Hockey and Soccer. I think as our society becomes more diverse and more accepting (however slowly) of other cultures and allow other cultures to permeate through to American culture so won't the sports. Therefore a company/business like ESPN is looking after their bottom line and giving the American public what ESPN thinks the public wants. ESPN is not trying to be a visionary and bring new things into the public, they are trying to make money and put up what Americans want to see. Of course I could be way off base!

yahoo This guy was always solid, not an HOF-er but a solid netminder for 20 years.

Homer, Unstoppable he had three goals and one assist the entire series, 2 of the goals and his one assist were in that game. I can only remember the one that was his own creating, the wrist shot he let go. Other than that I would say Dats and Z created the opportunity he was good enough to finish it. I have to say I cannot remember his play around the boards after the hit, I do know he was still in front of the net and playing hard.

Actually he did score it an I assisted, it was a long game I had to play 74 minutes.

Very true!!! Violence sells like a mo-fo

I wish there was something I could offer after this post that made any kind of improvement to it, however all I can say is, you are right. Mac, Shanny, Pronger, Beauchemin, and other's biggest impact was not their ability to fight, it was their ability to score, defend, kill pps, or quarterback the pp. Again, you can afford to have a Joey Kocur when the roster is what it was on the 97 team: Doug Brown, Kris Draper, Sergei Fedorov, Slava Fetisov, Tomas Holmstrom, Joey Kocur, Vladimir Konstantinov, Slava Kozlov, Martin Lapointe, Igor Larionov, Nicklas Lidstrom, Kirk Maltby, Darren McCarty, Larry Murphy, Chris Osgood, Jamie Pushor, Bob Rouse, Tomas Sandstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Tim Taylor, Mike Vernon, Aaron Ward, Steve Yzerman Can this Red Wings team afford to have a Kocur/Probert type guy with the forwards they currently have. I don't think so, they need to worry about scoring. IMO

Contrary to what those of you in the other thread about Downey may think my answer is, I say Downey. The D is set in my opinion unless another top 3 defenseman rears his head. But if the options are Grigs, Kopecky, or Huds vs. Downey I say let the young guys play it out. But with the current options I would give Downey the nod.

Homer, Z, and Dats disappeared almost every road game. They scored almost all of their points in the Joe. I have no idea why, but that is how it shook out. And if you realistically expect homer to score every game you are seriously overestimating his talent level. Did that hit deter him from standing in front of the net, did it stop him from playing his game no. It just so happens that he didn't score after that hit. I say coincidence you say, they went hand in hand. I think that a pp that can not score on a 5-3 in the NHL is much more of a concern than a fighter but again it is all opinion.

Raiders are one or two players away from being good, Cardinals would not surprise me to make it to the playoffs. After all my original statement was that Chi would not play more than 82 games. In the NFL you can find quality starting players off of the free agent list or Waivers whenever you want. Cases in point: Atlanta just signed Leftwich, everyone thought they were a playoff caliber team with Vick, Leftwich has better passing numbers throughout his career than Vick ever dreamed of, and with the threat of a passing game Dunn now becomes dangerous. New England the past three to four years has had to make due with players off of the free agent list to complete their roster in very important positions. Houston replaced their starting Quarterback with another teams back up and they are better. The cheifs were almost in the playoffs last year and they lost their starting QB, how is that yearly suckstravnganza? Yes the Colts and Pats have been winners for years, but who else has been in the mix year after year. Philly is up and down, Dallas up and down. In football people end up talking about surprises in reference to teams who do not make it to the post season. At the end of the year I agree you will have a team that sucks and a team that is nearly unstoppable, but before the season starts there isn't a team that would surprise you. However in the NHL before the season starts you can eliminate 4-5 teams easily based on talent level. Oakland is an issue like Boston is an issue, horrible ownership, if Al Davis was more concerned with winning he could put a winner out whenever he wanted. No one made Davis get rid of Moss, he could have signed or traded for Matt Schaub like Houston did. The point is that the talent is there, there are people not playing that could walk into the game and be a difference maker easily on any team. The Talent pool for Football is 10 times the size of hockey! How many NHL teams if they lost their starting Goalie could find a replacement or have a replacement on hand. Considering some teams are using a glorified back up as their starter I would say not too many.

Do your research son, Houston is 2-0, scoring 54 and allowing only 24, tampa is 2-0 and yet the Saints a pick by many experts" for the superbowl is 0-2!! But thanks for helping my point!!!

Thus the wings needing to get tougher fits in that category as well correct? I can point to a specific example or two of plays or situations that cost the wings the series, for instance: PP ineffectiveness, and Lilja's give away to name a few. Can you point to one instance where having a fighter would have won the Wings a game or the series? Gordie: Who one that game? the one where Pronger mashed Homer. Did that hit have any barring on the outcome of the game? My opinion, no, I am guessing your opinion is yes. My issue is not with people wanting or not wanting an enforcer or a fighter it is the reasons they are hiding behind. You have been clear about it from the start of these threads, however others say the team needs one and can not win without one. And then in the same thread some one says well, having and enforcer will not help win the cup. Well what in the hell good does it do then. And the arguments about the 97 team having all of that toughness. They were able to have that toughness because guys like Shanny, Lapointe, and Mac were players first fighters second, and the top 9 forwards on that team were an unbelievable combination of players and the D was one of the best cup winning d's in years. You or I could have stood in that net and won a few games with that team in front of us. If you can find a player like Shanny when he first got to Det I am all for that player joining the team, but right now this team doesn't have the top 6 talent to sustain a guy like Downey,Hartnell, Tootoo, etc.

1.You are trying to tell me that if the PP scores on the 5-3 that happened just before the Ducks tied the game, the outcome would have been the same because the Wings are a weaker team? OR are you saying that if the team was tougher some how the Ducks would have backed down to the Wings tougher ways? 2. My argument is that a lot of people go around talking like the wings are hiding in the corner because the big bad Ducks are going to hurt them. The wings backed down to no one this season (well the philly game I will give you), or post season. Being able to score is also how the game is played, so for the Cleary one hit you will also get 1 goal if lucky from Downey. Wow!!! 3. To exact revenge!! Pure and simple, Laraque will not stop Tootoo from doing a damned thing. He is just there so that afterwards some one is there to exact revenge. IF you want someone on the Wings to exact revenge for cheap and dirty hits than say so, don't hide behind the thinly veiled argument that Dats and Z will get hurt with out a guy like Downey, but with him no one would dare take a run at them. If it is revenge you want than say so, but don't say the team is weak and can't stand up for itself.

Well thought out and convincing argument F.Michael. Just kidding you and I have had this discussion before and it was a good debate, I was just giving you some crap!!!!!!

Elbows like that do not happen every game they are a once and a while thing it is not like every game the wings play there is a player out there running around looking to destroy D and Z, this isn't Slap Shot. So how do you know when to put Downey in the line up, you can't wait until the second period to name your line up. You have to ice a team every game that gives you the best shot to win. Do you know that more people in the US are killed with their own hand gun than are with that of an assailant? The Wings lost to the Ducks due to pp ineffectiveness and the inability to score, not because they were beat up. If that was the case the team never would have made it out of the first round against Calgary, which I would argue was the toughest most physical team the wings faced in the post season. And I remember Cleary absolutely destroying Phaneuf which led to a goal, but you conveniently left that out to help your this team is weak argument!!!!!!! And again I ask how on earth will a fight scare a fighter from taking a run at anyone????

NFL????

Or said player is flying around trying to make hits and one of the following happens: 1. He crushes a guy the crowd cheers, Dats picks up the puck and dekes out a goalie and scores an unbelievable goal. 2. He whiffs and now there is a forward out of position and an odd man rush ensues that leads to a goal. 3. He crushes a guy and ends up in the box and a pp goal is scored. 4. He crushes a guy and in the process screws he knee all up (ala Pronger going over Yzerman) and now that player is no longer available. Lets say Downey takes a run at Pronger because Pronger took one at Z. Do you really think that the Ducks would leave it at that. People on here act like the wings run away from physical teams and can't beat them, when that is not true at all. A fighter doesn't win the series against the Ducks, 1 or 2 5-3 goals would have!

The misconception that a guy like Downey will stop Tootoo or Pronger is very, very off base whether you, or anyone else here thinks otherwise. Guys like that do that s*** regardless of who is on the ice. They are who they are, having Chris Simon running around with a stick that says "your face here" will not stop Tootoo, Boogard or Janssen from taking a run at Dats or Z. They will do it regardless of what they think may happen, because they are not scared of a fight. Why would the threat of a fight do anything to stop Boogard? Having a fighter is not a deterrent to guys like this. Did having a fighter deter Lemieux from trying to turn Drapers face into ground chuck? Downey and Mac are not the same type of player, McCarty was a better skater, better shooter, however they both were willing to fight. So was Shanny at one point in time does that mean Downey and Shanny are the same type of player, no. And neither are Shanny and Mac. There are varying degrees of fighters, those who can score, those who score and can fight, and fighters who are thugs and once and a while they get a deflection that ends up in the net. F.Michael, don't players also play with more swagger and energy when on a line with Dats or Z type of players? Johnathon Cheecho seems to have a lot more energy with Thornton on his line than he would if Downey were there. (horrible exaggeration, I know but you get my point)

Hey OsGod 9/19 is talk like a pirate day, international talk like a pirate day!!