Opie

Again I can not comment on the 70's or 80's, I am not in favor of contraction either, I think the league should try to get the 30 teams it has competitive on a yearly basis before they expand. You can not deny that there are teams in the league that fill there roster with lesser players, that are not nearly as talented as some. My argument is that there are players on the ice going against other 3-4th liners that are out classed. Det is lucky a guy like Wallin or Kuznetsov can be replaced because A. You are right people want to play for a contender, B. They have a deep talent Pool. Not every team is Det.

Question one: If it won't help them win the cup, what else is there? I mean if winning the cup is not the ultimate goal then why would you have an issue with the team as it is, why add a fighter just to be the same team as last year or worse. Isn't the goal to put the team on the ice that gives you the best shot at the cup? Question 2: So you would rather have a team like Nas, Phi, or others that have a tougher team but their success has more ups and downs than a yo-yo on a roller coaster? I myself would prefer to have a team that consistently is tops in the league and has an innate ability to ice a winner every year. This team is tougher than it has been in the past, and it will not end up like Buffalo, one great year and then the talent is depleted. Ask a Philly fan if they would rather have a winner for over a decade (included is 3 cups) or a team that disappoints them so often they can set their watches by it. So lets say Downey makes this team, who's place does he take? Lets say he replaces Huds, (babs apparent whipping boy) that means you have to find a way to make up for his points last year, as well as trying to fill in for the loss of Lang and Schneider. Now Ralf will probably fill in for Schneider (if not more), but this team is severely lacking in the top 6 category. Adding a fighter right now helps that how. And again I ask isn't the point to win the cup, which would mean you would want to get better than last year, corrct? I think you and I have had this conversation before but it may not have been you. What happened to Philly last year? Was that the only team to whip Det on the scoreboard last year? Did the other teams that beat up Det on the scoreboard also beat them up? Teams get the crap kicked out of them physically and on the scoreboard many times a year. One game can not be used to evaluate whether the team was a success or not,just like it can't be used to evaluate the needs of a team.

Maltby's days as an instigator/agitator whatever you want to call it are over and his days as a stopper are very very limited. I wouldn't b surprised to see him get a lot of time on the bench, unless some one gets a long term injury.

[sarcasm] You mean it didn't. I am shocked [/sacasm] You may not have said it, but based on the statements of other pro-fighter posters it should not have mattered if the penalty was being called or not. He MUST stand up for his teammates or the team is weak and lacks toughness. If I missed understood that or misrepresented this place over the past month some one please correct me.

Because people want a fighter, for no other reason than wanting to watch hockey fights. There are a few posters on here like OsGod that will tell you that is why he wants it. Others say the team cannot win until there is a fighter on the roster. And if you say, how do you make up for the goals the guy Downey (or other fighter) replaces, the answer I got was you won't need to because the team will be so tough that it won't matter. (paraphrased) In one thread every one is clambering for a Downey type guy and in the next they talk about how this team doesn't have enough scoring. Curban95, If you have noticed the teams Holland has iced, his theory is not that different from Snowboy's.

I am not using Winnipeg as an example, I agree with you that is a poor example. I am not sure the Hamilton area could support another Hockey team better than Nashville can either. You have a lot of assumptions in your thesis, lets look at the active rosters, how many teams out there right now have backup quality goaltenders as starters? Bos (last year definitely and I am not sold on Manny F), Col, La, Phi (nitty has done nothing to me), CLB, etc. How many teams have a D that consists of a 1 or 2 and then a bunch of 5-6's? Bos, Pho, Clb, Atl, etc. How many teams have a top 6 that has 3rd or 4th line talent making it up, not because of choice? Det (this year), Bos, Chi, etc. Now I know you can say it is because there is more talent out there, but that is where we have differing opinions and I would break my fingers trying to type all day if I were to try and change you opinion. I brought up late round miracles because the draft is how more and more talent comes into the league. How many players from round 3 and beyond actually become NHL players? Not for a game or two or a season or two, I mean legit full time NHLers. Yes the contracts given to Hartnell and Timmonen were way over paid and Nashville was not going to match. However the org has so much as said they were trying to hit league min. How is that helping anything, and the fact that they can ice a non-competitive team with out having to ravage their AHL team shows that their is plenty of talent in the NHL that is not deserved of being there. It looks like Nashville is trying to be the Tampa Bay D-Rays of the NHL. I am not so sure that Vokoun was out played by Mason. Mason played well but he could turn out to be their version of Legace. Everyone was screaming for Legace to be the starter, and when he was he was not a NHL caliber Starting netminder. Vokoun is a proven goaltender and is only 30. This man singlehandedly won games for the franchise, played at an all star level for the last 5 years, and still has a few very quality years ahead of him. They traded him more for the $$ reasons than they did because they thought Mason was better than Vokoun. They were trying to sell the team, that won't happen with one of the highest payrolls. I can't comment on whether or not any of the current teams could compete in the 80's I simply didn't watch enough hockey then. What I can say is that there are at least 5 teams in the league right now that you can eliminate from the playoffs. The season hasn't even started, but you can look at their rosters and say they do not have the talent to make the playoffs. Chi, Nas, Mtl, Bos, Phx, Tbl. I think we all can honestly look at their rosters and say that they are not making it, now there is the "punchers chance" that every team has. But how big of a surprise would it be if Chi plays more than 82 games this year. Staying with the opinions of this board, how many players on this years Det roster get s*** on for their talent level. A lot of people gripe about Lilja, Lebda, etc, etc. Not arguing with you just saying I don't think there is enough top tier talent to sustain more teams.

Eva, I like discussing things with you because you always back you statements up with why you feel that way. However, you are assuming a lot about the talent pool. Teams like Pho Fla Bos Chi Tbl and others at times in the recent past have had a hard time icing a competitive team. And when TB did win the cup, how bad were Was, ATL, and Car. If the league is so laced with talent how come, there are so many teams that struggle to be competitive even without major injuries. And for those of you who ask how are you going to grow a sport's fan base without growing the league, ummmm TV!!! Get a TV contract that will not stop coverage of a playoff game for a NASCAR race or a Basketball game. Put a game together that all teams are competitive. No one wants to sit around and watch a game they are not really interested in when the score is 6-1. That will not grow the fan base. Contraction (not the answer right now either) would allow for that. And if you contacted two teams you still wouldn't make a drastic change. There would be 15-20 players from 2 teams that people would be all over. Right now the league has to focus on getting the game more popular and strengthen the teams that are out there. Two teams have been sold this off season, and in the case of the Preds the owner has been the bastard stepchild of the league for the past couple of years. Let me explain that statement, he has been living off of the money teams like Det have been forced to give up. He constantly complained that there was no way for him to field a team in such a small market. He had by far the sweetest arena deal known to mankind. Yet this team some how could not make money and thus is forced to cut talent this year to be "fiscally safe". So there are teams out there right now in markets that can not support hockey teams (if what Leopold was saying is correct), the leagues popularity is suffering, there are teams already that can not ice a competitive team (ownership/gm fault or not), yet you are trying to tell me that expansion will solve this. All that is going to do is open the door for more poorly run organizations and weaker competition. Besides the wings who else pulls late round draft miracles with regularity? Not many teams, because the late rounds are hard to find great talent in. I thought the last expansion was a great idea, I was wrong then, and I believe it is wrong now.

Not sure that he brings anything other than ok - decent defense, I think Quincey should get more time than Lilja mainly due to age, but also after the way Quincey played in the post season. However I will not say that because of that play Lilja is a s***ty player. I am not saying you have said that GMR but others have. I think that because he made that one mistake he does not become Jesse Wallin or Maxim Kuznetsov, which is how some people make it sound. He is a sound defenseman and every team needs those types of players at the 6/7 position. I also think that Lebda should get more time than Lilja, but again that is because of age and also skating ability. But then again, Lilja is the size everyone wants, well it is not very often you find a gifted player with a lot of size. Joe Thornton is a rarity as is Chara.

So as someone else asked why not bash lids for deflected the puck past Hasek? What if Lilja has a +20 year with 5g 10a and wins 5 fights, is he still a s***bag defenseman? Or is he a good defenseman who made a mistake a year ago? Don't get me wrong I am not saying he is a Norris candidate or anything, just that the guy made one mistake, which if he makes that mistake after the pp scores on either the 5-3 or the ensuing 5-4, the mistake is moot. I guess it comes down to do people want to jump all over Lids, Dats, Z, Homer and others who couldn't do squat on the pp or do people want to get on a guy who isn't in the "untouchable" or "savior" category of this team because he made a mistake over a 5 second span. Or the guys who had over 2 minutes of pp time to put a team away in the closing minutes of a playoff game. I personally would much rather say the pp lost that series, and Lilja didn't help by giving the puck away.

So everyone here that rags on Lilja for giving up the puck to Selanne has themselves never made a mistake in a pressure situation. Or is saying that even Niklas Lidstrom has never made a mistake. Lilja played very well in the Playoffs and made one glaring mistake, so that means he is a s***ty D-man. Some of you people need to get more realistic ideas of what a good player is or is not. There is no one in the league that has played their whole career and not made a mistake!

Does this changed anything: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=Agzq...p&type=lgns Ozolinsh gets a tryout!

I agree with you I think that the Norris goes to the MVD *Most Valuable Defenseman. I was just thinking an offensive trophy for D-men.

How so, care to elaborate?

I think they should make a BobbyOrr trophy as best offensive defenseman, not that, that automatically makes the Norris the Lidstrom. He would have to win it a few more times though, I mean Orr did win it 8 times in a row. Now that is impressive s***, but I think Harvey had 7 wins which would put him ahead of nick. But give Lids 5-6 more years in the league and he should get 2-3 more norris trophies. IMHO no homerism, he is bar none the best defensive defenseman the league has seen since Harvey. And he may even turn out to be better when we start looking back on his career with historical perspective. The man is the definition of Defenseman.

Great idea Hank but as you said Pipe dream. The owners are so busy thinking myopically that they don't see spending a little money in the short term may look bad but in the long run will be much better for the league and their pockets.

The game is a different game now. While I see where you are headed with that argument it works both ways. More 3rd and 4th liners statistically are better than the 80's because they are playing against lesser talent. Also while guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and Messier could have scored in any era, comparing 80's netminders to today's goaltenders is a bad comparison. Just look at the pads that Patty Roy wore for his career. I think it was SI or THN that did an article showing the pads he wore throughout his career and the difference from year to year is more than noticable. Goalie equipment is bigger and lighter. Players, like Cheli, have learned to work out specifically for hockey. The talent pool is thin, I would say very thin, and yes some teams have four solid lines. Then you have a team like the Bruins whose fourth line would be better if you and I played on it. (exaggeration) Expansion is like fighters on the wings roster, it is an opinion not a fact, and we will probably never agree but I think the league should work more on supporting the teams out there before expanding. How much fan support is Nashville going to get if all of the sudden there is a new team in KC. Is it going to help them any. NO. But that is my opinion we welcome yours (sorry Maine joke, Fred Nutter Reference that none of you probably get)!

That Lids video just reminded me how deadly accurate he is with his shot and how deft he is at breaking a play up with what seems like no effort at all. The one he grabs from Grier and just throws back to the forwards through his own legs. Simply beautiful. I bet Grier sees Nick's stick in his nightmares. That could have been a series saving save.

I love how people want size, bigger is better should be this place's mantra yet the 6'3 205lb forward (Kopecky) should be traded for a washed up D-Mac. Brilliant!!!!!

I would much rather have Cleary out there than I would Maltby, at least Cleary can put the biscuit in the basket once in a while. I love how people complain that Sammy isn't a first liner, grigs isn't a first liner, cleary isn't a first liner so on and so on, who else is. Heatley isn't walking through the doors of the Joe anytime soon. Babs has to make do with what he has. Unless some how the wings manage to make a trade for a top 6 forward, this team has three first line guys, and they do not want Z and dats on the same line. These lines will be tweaked all year long until babs finds the lines he likes.

Not for stats but for what he has done for the team, he was a big part of those cup teams. The grind line was pivotal, they had timely goals and played some great defense. But I also did call it an outside shot, his chances of being in the rafters is about 5-10%, more than likely he won't but I could see the team putting it up as a showing of respect for what he did.

I see Lids for sure going up maybe Draper but that is an outside shot, other than that it would be a stretch for any current wing. Unless Dats, Z stay with D for their careers and win more. If this team becomes a perennial loser that may hurt them in that regard, but they are the only two I see with a shot right now.

I am not saying Dats and Z are the best to ever play the game, but they have a knack for making the people around them better without making those people change their game. The played very well as 2 kids and a goat feeding Hully in the slot, Homer didn't change his game at all and he is nothing like Hully and that was at one point in time last year THE BEST line in hockey. From were I am sitting it looks like as long as you pay attention and keep your stick on the ready, these two can help anyone score 20-30. Of course you can't be a brick hands, it helps if you can hit the net. Look at all of the grief Samuelsson gets and with Z on his line he is a 20 goal scorer, that says a lot for Dats and Z. But you put a guy with a shot like Huds with him and if he is focused and works hard, he will reap the rewards of the skill of D and Z. That is why I think Grigs will have a good year this year too, not because he will be a phenom, but because odds are he will end up on Dats wing. And that is not a bad place to be!!!

Not a bad move at all, playing any of the young guys with Draper imho is a great move. Plus if this line is on the ice and there is an important face off to be won, you have a great face off man on the wing.

Best of luck for a speedy recovery!!!

He has the best release on this team, and if you put him with Dats with that kind of playmaking ability and passing, or Zetterberg for that matter, he will easily put up 20 maybe even thirty. I love Homer as much as the next guy, but how much growth did he experience because he was with Z and Dats. They made him better, and he has worked hard to stay at a level where he can stay on their line. And remember one Scott Bowman once didn't have high hopes for Homer either.