Opie

Thanks for the info, that sucks though. I was never saying he would be Malkin, I was just saying I had heard the comparison and couldn't remember if it was pre or post accident. Either way I am just happy he can play again.

OK I have conceded the Defense will be great! (In small words for people who keep trying to say things about their D "OMG Their D is the bestest ever!!!!! I <3 pronger) (please take as sarcasm!) Also I am not saying they will be cellar dwellars, I am just saying they are not the cup favorite. Moving on! Young Guns, They had all of those people last year, and Selanne still had to have an incredible season. He scored 96 freaking points, and they have not replaced him with anyone. They finished 3 points ahead of SJ, that meaning they barely won the division over a SJ team that has not changed much at all and still has one of the top 2 forwards in the game, and Marleau is no slouch either, regardless of what he did in this years playoff. SJ's top 2 forwards are better than any forward on the ANA team. And to top it all off SJ has 13 mil to spend, and ANA has 1.3 mil, notice the difference, I guess decimals are important. (according to nhlnumbers, I am sure you are right about Ryan, Eva, but I am going with something I can prove) Those top 4 D will work at trying to shut down the top two lines, however as we have seen even the invincible one himself (lids) can be on the ice for goals. And also no dfensive pairing in the league can play the entire defensive zone, the forwards will have to be very good in their own zone, something Penner and Teemu brought to the table. Because they have the best top 4 d-men in the world doesn't mean they are the favorites to win the cup. The west has a lot of scoring, it is highly unlikely that the Ducks are going to go through the season with 20-30 shutouts, they will have to score and without Teemu to take a teams top defensive line and pairing MacDonald is screwed. This team has some serious depth issues. They lost their #1 and #2 goal scorers, #1 and #5 PPG scorers, #1 PPA, I could keep going but I have already pointed this out. The only argument you have is a hypothetical that says, Getzlaf given more minutes will score 30 goals. And did you just compare him to Joe Sakic, please let me see this guy use that "Twisted Wrister" to net himself 40+ goals before we compare him to on of the top 10 players of the last 30-40 yeers. Bertuzzi: Seriously folks stop living in the past, all we know about this guy is he has a lot of baggage, a bad back, and doesn't go to the net anymore. Yet some how he is going to walk through the doors in Ana and be a guy who can create his own shot. What did he produce with Lang last year? Lang would probably be the #1 or #2 center on that team. Do you honestly think Bertuzzi can score 30 goals without Naslund or Morrison. Now back to Pronger: He single handily changed Edmonton and Anaheim is that what you are saying. In 03-04 Edmonton was 6 points out of the Playoffs, in 05-06 they added Pronger and added 6 points to earn the 8th spot in the playoffs, they beat a lethargic Det. There have been many threads on this board about Det losing that series due to Manny, Pavel, etc. Yes he helped them not denying that. But it is not like he went to a cellar dwellar and made them a contender, he took a ninth seed to an eighth seed. And as we all know anything can happen in the playoffs. ANA, Neidermayer is the reason they one that cup, did Pronger help, damn straight he did. I am not arguing that he isn't one of the top 5 defenseman in the world, I am arguing that he isn't a norris trophy defenseman. IMO the norris trophy finalist were: 1. Lids 2. Neids No one else had that great of a year. Did Pronger play his ass off, yes but if you are the second best defenseman on your team how can you qualify for the best in the league? That is my argument about Pronger, I don't think he sucks, I think his reputation and the fact that he has a great partner out there got him in the voting. All this team did was add Schneider (if Neids returns) and Bertuzzi, they lost Teemu and Penner. Comparably if the wings Added Rafalski and kept Schnieds and Bertuzzi, but lost Homer and Dats(or Z) are they the cup favorites, I say NO. I will because as I said in my other post, this is my favorite thread in a long long time, because people are debating an idea not calling people names and arguing. People have actually taken other people's opinions into consideration when posting back. I will keep talking about this as long as people are replying. This is what the board used to be like, except it was every thread!!!

As mentioned by numerous others on this board, I believe it was two years ago or the year before (can't remember) but there were a lot of comparrisons to him and Malkin. That would be unbelievable if he was that good, but I can't remember if that praise was before or after the accident which obviously makes a difference.

Clouts doesn't even need to get hurt, Labarbera should be the starter after about a month or so.

All they have done is replaced Neidermayer with Schneids and if Neidermayer comes back they added to their D with Schneids. They lost 2 of the top 3 forwards on their team. If the wings lost 2 of their top 3 forwards this board would be s***ting a brick. For Example The wings Keep Schneids add Rafalski but lose Dats and Homer in the process you are going to tell me that they are still one of the best teams in the league because the D is that good. No way I do not believe it. Defense wins championships is an expression which I believe true but it is not Defense wins championships on it's own. They have lost over 60 goals as a team last year they scored 258 last year. Do not confuse this team with the Devils that won the cup, the devils had a lot of proven talent up front, they just made them play D. This team has a lot of hopefuls on it, and has effectively done nothing to help the offense. If Neids does return he is effectively leaving them short one forward. Perry, Getzlaf, Kunitz, and the other young guys were able to make plays because the other teams worried way more about Selanne, now it won't even take a great D pairing to shut them down. The vaunted pp that everyone refers to will have two sets of very good to great d-men and then no one up front. Unless you take Pronger off of the point and put him in front of the net Chara style, but then you have a guy with a less than stellar wrist shot at a forward spot and a forward at a D spot. Either way this team is going to struggle IMO!! Yzerman did it in the past, and I know others have but not sure about it after the new CBA. Another point, if Bert gets hurt before the all-star break or before the trade deadline even what do they do with the 1.3 million they have to spend. Who then replaces Penner and Selanne?

Ditto except Powerplay I give a 4!

ALL they have to do is overcome the lose of Selanne and Penner, I agree that is all they have to do, but what exactly is it that they need to replace. Lets look at something for a minute: Selanne and Penner are going to be considered - numbers and Bertuzzi and Schneids will be + Anaheim's gains from Bert and Schneids= Goals + 13 -77 = loss of 64 Assists + 43 - 62 loss of 19 Points + 56 - 139 loss of 83 PPG + 2 - 34 loss of 32 PPA + 30 - 30 Even (thanks solely to Schneids) GP + 76 - 164 Loss of 98 (both players played in all 82 and were #1 and #2 scorers goal wise) They will have to find a way to make up 64 goals included in that are 25 ppg. This team is not the same team without Teemu, I would venture that his return is more important than Neids. The D was already one of the best in the league, adding just makes them that much better than the rest of the D. I have never argued that. But their offense is severely lacking, and Bertuzzi has done nothing to show me that he will do anything besides get hurt. I could be wrong but he has to show me something, hell Grigs could very well play more games and out score Bertuzzi, by a long shot. The Ducks have lost two players who were out there every game, logging incredibly important minutes. Bertuzzi for Penner isn't an even swap, Penner plays the way Bert used to, not the way he does now. In order to have the best shot at the cup they will have to have a better scorer than Andy MacDonald and his 27g and 51a for 78 points. Back to the defense for a second: For the sake of argument lets say at the deadline the wings trade for Adrian Aucoin, would they not then be a better team offense and defense. The thing about that is the wings can fit that under the cap, this could actually happen. The Ducks need a forward for under 1 mil, and then they have 0 left after. The ducks have a great Defense their offense is severely lacking! BTW this is by far my favorite thread/discussion on here in a long, long time!!!

I paired them up the way I did because Rafalski and Schneids bring the same thing to the table same as Lids and Neids, Pronger and Chelios, not because of helping my argument. I see your point of Chelios = O'Donnell so I guess that would leave me at Lids > Neids ?? < Pronger ( no one I put there will be a fair comparrison, but that was why I had cheli there) Rafalski > Schneids Kronwall < beauchemin (my opinion, this is closer than most of you think) Lilja > Hnidy anyother wing Dman < Hnidy. But if you go to offense the comparrisons are no where near close. And I still don't think the wings are the favorite in the west. I have conceded the D will be great, but that alone does not make them the front runner for the cup.

Are you serious those were legit punches did you watch the video, most hockey fight early punchs hit a helmet. And I didn't say it was a hockey caliber fight anyways, what I said was that it was a beatdown that belonged on that list. Because a 20 something year old got his ass handed to him by a 40 year old pitcher. But if you still think they were noogies, find a friend let him put you in a headlock and punch you in the head and face 5 or 6 times and then tell me they were noogies. This wasn't Pedro throwing an old man to the ground this was an actual fight, which I know sounds weird for baseball but the old man was beating him badly. Was McCarty's beat down of Claude worse (I guess in this case better) YES Without a doubt YES. especially when you consider the emotion and the rivalry. But also without a doubt Nolan beating up boy wonder belongs on that list. After reading that I see there is no point in talking to you about this, you definitely are not openminded about this and I will stop now. Is for girls, you should have t-shirts printed that say s*** like," [blank] is for girls" and see how often you get laid wearing them, way to bring us back to the 40's

I reiterate my point, where does the offense come from? Selanne led them in most of their offensive categories including g, pts, +/-, ppg and ppa. I am not denying the potential their D has, but how will they score. And that unbelievable power play they will have, is missing the biggest piece from last year. Don't get me wrong Schneids will help, but not 25 ppg and 23 ppa. They are going to be with out their #1 forward, if the wings lost Dats or Z but added Beauchemin for Chelios, would det automatically be the lock for the Stanley cup. I guess that would have to mean that Andy MacDonald is as good as whichever wing you take away, Z or Dats. I say this and don't think Det is the odds on favorite for the cup. I think San Jose is the front runner in the west at this point. SJ has better forwards than Det and Ana, has better goaltending (although Hasek was great last year, I am not sure he can repeat it). SJ's weakness is defense, but at least they have Rivet and McClaren and 13 mil left before the cap. There are a lot more things that go into a team having the best shot at the cup than their Defense.

Not so sure pronger is better than neids but just my opinion.

What did Bertuzzi do for the PP last year in Det? One PP line does not make their PP the best in the league, what does their second unit look like? Penner and Teemu gone to me is a huge subtraction from that team that they have not replaced. I did not miss your point, I just think you are overestimating them. That team will have less offense than most of the teams in the West. San Jose has a just as good a shot at the cup as Anaheim, IMO. Beauchmin is not better than Krowall when healthy, again IMO. And there offense is still short one forward, they have 1.3mil left in the cap (with Neids) and need another forward. Granted it doesn't have to be top 6 like Det needs, however if they sign a 3rd liner at a .5-1 mil price tag and have an injury to any one top 6 forward or top 4 d-men they are screwed. This is not a very deep team. Seeing as they are still one forward short. I will give you they have a great Defense, I never argued that, in fact the only point I made was that Pronger was not a Norris worthy D man, which you some how took as I don't think they have the best shot at the cup. I don't think they have the best shot at the cup, lucky guess on your part (or you are in my head, GET OUT!!) because not only did Teemu get 96 points for them last year he also played 82 games. Who will replace his points, and don't tell me that the D will be so good they don't need to make it up.

I am sorry for my "homer" comments but please tell me what Pronger has ever done without a big name as a D pairing. While Lids, and Neidermayer have been norris candidates with veritable nobodies next to them. (In the past not last year) I honestly do not see the attraction to Pronger, he is a very good player, notice my point of contention was him being a Norris Candidate, but he was not the missing piece to that team, Neidermayer was. Put an ECHL team in front of those 4 and you have a last place team, you may have been exaggerating, but you need offense and forwards that can play D. They lost 2 vital pieces to there offense and replaced one of them with a guy who has had a recent history of having trouble getting on the ice, and his glory days are a ways away from him. I also think you are overrating Beaucheim, and overrating Schneids D ability. He was a great fit in Det, because he was allowed to be an offesive defenseman. Again a very very good player, but I would say Detroit's D is a healthy Kronwall or a Danny Markov signing, or Lilja having a great year away from being better. Lids > Neids Ralf > Schneids Cheli < Pronger Markov > Beauchemin or Healthy Kronwall > Beauchemin or Lilja Break out year > Beauchemin *(Break out year is imperative here) Also that pp will miss Teemu badly!!! again all IMO

His contract is already set at 6.75mil for this season and next. Now he can take a salary reduction however if it real drastic I am sure the NHLPA will step in and say not so fast. However even with him back they are less of a team than they were. Basing off of last years stats alone they have become worse with the loss of Penner and the addition of Bert. They got a good deal older, I am not sold on Pronger being that good. He is living on his past rep, and the fact that people think he is a great hitter, he is a dirty hitter and plays with a mean streak, but I am baffled by how he ended up a norris candidate. Niedermayer I see but not pronger. IMHO!

Besides Soccer I believe Nascar has the largest attendance numbers in the world. You may say well yeah you can fit a lot of fans in a stadium that is over a mile in circumference, but you couldn't get that many people at a hockey game on a regular basis. BTW I hate Nascar.

My question would be why Schneids and not Rafalski? I mean, in my mind we just upgraded our defense by replacing Schneids with Rafalski. I think Ralf (my new nickname for him) has a better defensive game and his offense his not that far behind Scheids. And who knows leaving NJ may allow him to be an even better offensive defense man.

True but the biggest difference being that Hatcher got screwed over by the "new" NHL, after the lock out he was slow and almost useless. Rafalski has played in this NHL and has been great in it.

IMO, Rafalski is a safe bet. That is like saying I am thinking about buying aZetterberg Jersey but not sure he will be with the wings when his contract is up. Rafalski is the real deal, there is no wish or hope with him, no injury to overcome, no glaring weakness in his game to worry about. He is as steady a player as Lids, not as good but as consistent and responsible. Drake and Cleary you may want to be skeptical of, don't take that as I think Cleary sucks, but he has to prove to me that he can repeat last years performance before I am sold on him. But back to my point, I think you are safe with Big Ralf!!

Kunitz contract doesn't kick in until after next season. It was a contract extension. I think to prevent what happened with Lowe this year. Things are going to get really exciting in the upcoming summers. People will see how Lowe got Penner and want to do the same with this years Dustin Penner. Lets say for some reason Kopecky has an absolutely tremendous year, compared to expectations, and puts up 25g and 30 assists, and he is scheduled to be a RFA (Not sure that he is this is an exercise) a lot of GM's out there would be looking to scoop him up. Some one would pay him, either Det would have to lock him up early or risk a guy like Lowe coming in and overpaying for him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=Agi....p&type=lgns Decent signing for him, good deal for them. Thoughts Anyone sense Burke sending a message to Penner in that,

Yeah, well I have a Ray Whitney Jersey, not on order but in my closet. And when the wings need a change of luck in big games, I got to the closet and switch whatever Jersey I am wearing for the Whitney one, and it has worked. Unfortunately in the Anaheim series, I didn't go to Rayzor quick enough!!

Alright I apologize for being late on this one, but I thought this would turn into another "see, this is what we need" thread. The Nolan Ryan beat down of Robin Ventura was a classic beatdown and was a lot more than noogies. I know none of us are huge fans of ESPN but this deserves to be high on the list. Nolan was over 40 for that fight, Ventura was under 30. He thought he could take the old man, ran at the mound and Nolan put him in a headlock and punched him in the head 5-6 times Ryan looked like he was having a blast, he didn't lose his hat until people were tackling him off of Robin, and Ventura got absolutely embarrassed by a 40-something year old man. That belongs on the list, it was not your typical baseball fight. If you watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfJ1C8pGI4 I know it is blurry but watch the last punch, that was a legit uppercut to the face.

That is what I thought but wasn't sure and thought some one would know before I could google it. And I was right thanks to Eva Deader retired Retired in '05!

I almost choked on my lunch when I read that. I think half of my turkey sandwich is lodge in my nasal cavity!!

My concern with Allison is the same as Forsberg... Health!! Allison can not be any slower than say a guy like, I don't know Hull's speed. I know Hull left the league because he was struggling in the new NHL, but there is a big difference between a 40 year old and a 32 being "too slow" I would pass on Allison, just like Lindros, Forsberg, and the other health risks. Speaking of kings players in health risks, what happened to Deadmarsh? Edit: Spelling