Opie

There are very few guys on Rival teams I respect, and even fewer I like. I can respect the hell out of Jeter or Bernie Williams or Mo Rivera (as a sox fan), but that doesn't me I like them. Joe Sakic on the other hand, I wish I could say a bad word about him, I wish I could have a strong hatred for him. But I can't, the best I can muster is a bad Snow Blower joke. That guy was a mirror image of our #19, IMO!

I won't argue that Cleary has been one of the Worst Wings this season, but is Sammy that much better?, Eaves?, Tootoo? And I guess that is my point, I really don't see a better option, now that Nyquist and Tatar have bigger roles than he does. That is why during the preseason and early season I was not supporting Cleary on this forum, but as of 12/3/13, there just are not any better options, IMO! OH and I try to stay polite, but that is not always how I come off or how I post. I try not to get baited or in attacks, but I still get caught up in it!

All I can say is that Cleary is a +2 while Tootoo (small sample size I get that) is a -4. I have never liked Tootoo's style,I admit that is a personal bias. I think he is a border line Matt Cooke/Chris Simon, with a little effort either way he could be a complete Thug, or a very good checking forward. Unfortunately his play is still in between those, and thus gets frustrating to me. You are ok with a Patrick Eaves who is injured a lot and had a good year a few years ago, but Cleary's Playoffs last year are not good enough? Dano was not a barn burner last year during the reg season, but come playoff time he stepped it up. IMO, he is more responsible in his own end than Tootoo, and to me Eaves doesn't really get me that much more excited than Cleary. (Not that this is what you are doing, but) I could have predicted the Dan Cleary for LGW whipping boy long before the season started.

The post I replied to about Nyquist and Tatar said that Cleary was taking up their spot from September until now. I then posted that the point was valid in Sept but no longer, however you removed that from the quote, either to make me look like I have no clue, or because you didn't realize that I was continuing my point in the next paragraph. Hence why in the quote I said: Notice the use of present tense "IS" not past tense "WAS". Either way, I specifically mentioned the gluttony of forwards no longer being the case and that Nyquist and Tatar are now playing BIGGER roles than Cleary, but why bother quoting my whole post, it only provides context for someone reading your post! The problem with the "Eye Ball" test is, as I mentioned, your perception is impacted by your preconceived notions and how you feel about Cleary. Sure you have to see things in order to get a good understanding of what is going on, but using only the "Eye Test" as your argument in a discussion, is incomplete and greatly influenced by your opinion, very, very few people (I am not one of them) can truly look at something and judge it with out any bias and be completely impartial.

I say arguably because I did not want to state my opinion as fact.

Boston is a great example of a team that balances out incredibly well in this cap era, they have high end talent, grinders, defensive studs, young guys, great two way play, and the toughness and grit guys like Thornton and Campbell add. They are one of the best teams in the league, not because of anyone of those attributes, but instead because of the sum of all those parts. I agree 100% for Detroit to shift to that it would be a good deal of tinkering. But looking at the contracts being shed this offseason, the transition may not be as long away as it looks from this point! i don't tell my Bruins Fan Friends this, but I do believe they have one of, if not, the most well rounded and deep teams in the league.

What has either of them done this year or last that tells you they are the better option? Tootoo gets limited minutes and games because of the exact reason a lot on here like him. He often takes himself out of the play to make a big hit. Sure it is nice to see a guy in the winged Wheel lay a big hit or two a game, but not at the price of team D. Eaves is Miller reincarnate, I still am not sure why Holland continues to sign the both of them, they are both very good PKers, and provide good D, but if Miller is in, do you really need Eaves and vice verse.

The same Eaves and Tootoo who cleared waivers? Glendening, I will give you, but in this org him coming up already is probably not going to happen!

LOL, unless I watch the games. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love the internet, it is like the Gene pool, in serious need of a life guard! I am not bent out of shape, that is you again assuming and attacking me! And btw my point about the post numbers was as I said, have fun it was a lot of posts, not that the volume gave the argument validity. That is why I post stats, to prevent you from misconstruing my message. But even that didn't work, you assumed what I meant and try to make a point out of it, even though you are wrong about what I meant, now who is reading minds! So the Wings are hanging on to make it to overtime, what is the other team doing? Stomping the Wings, while they hang on? I am done discussing this with you, we disagree, you are attacking me, you provide a few stats and then throw out the watch the games argument. Didn't realize you were a pro scout, I will go back to letting you rule the internet again oh wise an benevolent one!

So by quoting me and then asking what my post had to do with the topic is not disagreeing with me? I apologize for the misunderstanding! BTW, I hate the "Eye Test" answer that is a BS answer that is impacted by your own bias and perception, which is impacted heavily by a pre-conceived notion of what Cleary is or isn't doing! Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team! BTW this team no longer has a gluttony of forwards, that argument was valid in September, but now Tatar and Nyquist are playing bigger roles than Cleary on this team! Another BTW, I have no issues with Cleary in the Pressbox when the Wings are healthy, but as of right now what better option is there?

It is not that people are discussing it, it is the way. When did I say you could not discuss it, what I said was Because people HATE the man, what a miserable life you(in general not you specific) must lead to hate a player on your favorite team because he is not an elite fourth liner anymore. This is the same Dan Cleary that was one of the top point getters last post season! I don't take up his cause when someone like Wings_Dynasty says he is disposable, however when some one like Amato posts: I will take up his cause!

So what you are saying is right now there is no better option, but you would like them to pick a better option???

Sorry, I cannot believe I made a typo and put 2000+ instead of 200, oh my how could I have erred so badly, I mean 200 and 2000 have no digits in common. Please forgive me oh lord of the internet! Back to the point, I never said I read your mind did I? You told me to stop trying to read people's minds, which I was not trying to do. You may noticed I used the word people, I used that word instead of "You" because I was not talking about you. I do not have all of the answers, but I do have access to all of the stats and all of the posts on this forum, which you do as well. I used those to back up my argument, you know, with that little thing called Evidence, you attacked me and my posts, the sure sign that you cannot back up you argument! Oh and BTW this is the Wings first year out of that division, how have NAS and CBJ changed so drastically in those few months? The only team in that division that had a better chance than the Wings at winning it all was CHI, Maybe STL, not NAS and certainly not CBJ. Now if you want to start to talk about a tougher conference I am willing to listen, seeing as LA, ANA, etc... You may or may not recall that in last years playoffs the Wings first beat the 2nd best and a very physical team in the Ducks. Then took the eventual Champs to 7 games. But you didn't point that out in you lost in the second round post,l because it hurts your argument! The Wings are 2 points behind the Pens, 3 points behind the B's for third in their conference, yet some how they are not tough enough to win. They just dominated the B's, who had a full compliment of players and their starting goaltender. Aren't they the exact type of team that the Wings cannot beat? Hmmm, let me think weren't the B's just in a very important game of some sort in June??? What is the name of that again? Argue with me all you want, but you will notice I post stats, you post your opinion about posts, again a sure sign you can not back up your argument. if you want to talk about tangible stats or empirical evidence lets talk, but don't come back at me with, "My eyes tell me what I need to know"/Eye test Bull CRAP! How many of those were OT/SO losses and how many were shellackings because they couldn't handle the play along the boards?? I agree 100%, and that is due to an overall lack of respect for each other. With out fighting stick work, elbows, and other 2 min penalties would skyrocket, as well as injuries. But you can not file suit against the league (players union, not players) because they did not prevent head injuries all the while saying, we can police ourselves we know what is best!

What matters other than where the Wings are in the standings? If they are winning, then the Coach/Org is doing something right, Correct? And I believe the opposite of you, If the Wings are in last 1/3 of the way through the season that is when you make moves, you don't say "Oh crap, we are 28 games in and in last place, all is lost!" Unless of course you are an organization that doesn't have a 20+ year tradition of making the playoffs. When you are three points behind the top team in your division, through some real crappy play and an overall lack of goals, you stay the course and try to make line up, not roster changes. Why on Earth after 28 games you would completely give up and make no changes is beyond me. The team is getting contributions from guys like Miller, Nyquist, Tatar, Helm and even Smith. Lots of guys are starting to put together some really good stretches of Play, Alfie, Mule, Helm etc... Sure the fourth line is not the most explosive line in hockey, but what fourth line is? BTW, who is this person who could get more out of Cleary's 13 minutes a game? Other than the obvious answer of "someone Who Scores more", is that a hyphenated last name? Haven't heard of him before! I get that he is not the Wings best player, but the coach has a lot of respect for him, I will go with Babs opinion over yours, mainly because I know his coaching track record and not yours!

There is no need to read minds, just read the posts from the offseason! Go ahead, some had people predicting the Wings as 5th in the division. People posted stats about hits vs # of wins, # of Wings wins against the Big Bad East in the last 82 games played in that conference. Start here and then tell me I am reading minds! http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/74008-red-wings-to-be-in-an-eastern-conference-in-latest-nhlnhlpa-proposal/?hl=realignment#entry2360072 Enjoy the read it is 2000+ posts long! This division with TBL, TOR, MTL, OTT was supposed to kick the living Crap out of the Wings, because as you said the Wings were not tough enough to play against. Even Buffalo with Scott was supposed to be to tough for the Wings! BTW the Wings old division included such great teams as the Preds and The BJ's lets not pretend that the Lightning, Leafs, Sens, and Habs are not better than those two!!

Yes and as I pointed out in the "OMG DAN CLEARY IS THE DEVIL" thread, through all of this the Wings are 3 points out of first in the division, with 7 OT or Shoot Out losses, in a division that most on here though the Wings would get destroyed in. Tough to be a Wings fan!!!

He is dragging this team all the way down to 3 points behind the Bruins in a division most of you said would kick the living crap out of the Red Wings. Man it is tough to suck so bad that in arguably the toughest division in Hockey the Red Wings are all of three points out of first with 7 OT or shoot out losses!

Lets just take a look at a few recent incidents in what I consider the "NEW NHL" since the 04 lockout: Cooke Lays out Savard against the Big Bad Bruins, who beat the living crap out of him? Soon after Bergeron gets boarded and it nearly ends his career, who beat the living crap out of Randy Jones? Who fought either Steckel or Hedman when Crosby took his hits? I can go on and on with incidents of dirty hits not being retaliated on, however look how many fights there are after Clean hits! The times of a guy like Bert jumping Moore due to a bad check are starting to pass us by. Like it or dislike it, love it or hate it, the way the league is heading, especially with a multi-million dollar law suit being filed by players because Teams and the League did not do enough to "Protect them" , this retaliation is going to be less and less. There are (imo) more fights and crap started after completely clean hits than there is for Dirty hits. I have said this NUMEROUS times on this board, if all fights and melees were in the same vein as the Blood Feud was, than I would think every fight and retaliation was deserved. That was an intense rivalry built on total organizational hatred for each other, this wasn't just one guy crossing the line. This was coaches hating each other, players, everyone in each of those orgs would have dropped the gloves (or whistle or notepad) to go at the counter part in the other org. This was a deep seated rivalry born out of competition, many playoff series, ego, and one of the dirtiest hits that I can remember. Granted I am not 40 yet so my memory is not real deep!

Lol getting run constantly! Other than this time and Weber smashing Z tell me another one of the constant running. Otherwise your understanding of the word constantly may be a touch off.

This if anything will probably be the death blow to fighting! You can't file a suit against the league for this and still say you know best when it comes to fighting.

For exhibit A I present to you this man: The one The only Man of Glass, J.D. DREW!!! This man would literally crumble to his knees at the mere though of playing hockey, someone being able to hit him, no way! He hurts himself breathing enough as is!!!

I am glad he feels happy with TWO good chances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i2cn3VBzCo0 To me, Brouwer went out of his way to hit Stepan, jumping over his stick sounds like a bunch of BS to me. Where Brouwer was looking if not at Stepan I have no idea and if he couldn't see Stepan he needs his eyes checked. Stepan had no idea Brouwer was any where near him.

I know it is early but Babs really needs to stop tinkering every game. I think the team, especially the new guys, need some consistency to get chemistry going. But I am pleased with how they look early on.

Any word on suspension or no suspension? I looked on Ye Ole Interweb and did not find any news!