Opie

Yeah but, dude, its Datsyuk, he isn't really human!

ALright, my bad man sorry for misreading it, it was early into the coffee!! My bad!

He was better at what he did, I never said Earnhardt wasn't the best driver, hell I never said driving isn't a serious skill. I was just saying it is not a sport. Tour de France = Sport, Why? Athlete does the work and has direct impact on the results, and in fact the smallest of miscalculation to the vehicle he is traveling on could cost him the race, but he is the power plant. NASCAR, Formula 1, Indy series = Not a sport, why, The Athlete does a lot of the work and has a direct impact on the results and in fact the smallest miscalculation to the vehicle he is traveling on could cost him the race, but the power plant is a 350 horse power chevy, ford, toyota, dodge. Now do you see the point I am trying to make, yes he has impact and yes his set of skills being better than some one else will make him greater, but overall the car makes way more difference than the Athlete, thus not making it a sport in my opinion. And that can be the difference between using quaker state and mobil one, not the case in Easton vs Reebok! Of course I am comparing a mechanical factor, that is my whole point, the Athlete in one activity controls the entire scenario, down to the fact he picks his skates, the fit, the style, his stick, his curve, he even picks how hard he wants to skate that day, or just how far he can push himself before he breaks. So if he or his equipment break, he is responsible and accountable, if Lids' skates busted on him every third shift, do you think he would be in the NHL? EDIT: In NASCAR I am not sure how many drivers pick their set up, I am completely unaware of that so if they do, oops, my bad. --- Careful the following involves a hypothetical that would never come true please be careful reading, I understand the improbability of it, but you can not deny the possibilty---- In the other a Mechanical device is pushed to its limits by an Athlete? (In the case of Danica Patrick one I would enslave myself for, but that is another story, another thread!)Give a crew chief a kid with a remote that could handle the car and I bet you that crew chief could win. Technology could bring us remote controlled race cars, it probably won't, but the technology could exist where the Athlete could be completely removed from the event. Can not do that with Hockey. If a Dale Sr. had the equivalent of Lids' half a stick for a car(4 bald tires and no windsheild) would he be in NASCAR? That may be narrow minded but that is my definition of a sport, which oddly enough is what this thread has come to be! BTW: I am enjoying this debate, no flaming, no homerism, whatever else!

The coach adjusts lines/power play/ pk/ minutes/roster/ he can even make all of the players wear thongs, they still have to go out and perform. The crew chief changes the way the car handles, that could be the sole reason the guy wins, changing the curve of your stick is not going to give you the same advantage of having the wedge just right. The driver can not control the aerodynamics of the car, can not control how long the tires will hold up ( he can however burn through them quicker) he can not make the gas last longer, it is all dependent upon how the car deals with the variables, hockey is all about how the athlete handles the variables. You take the best driver in the world right now, and put him in an inferior car, what happens. You put the best hockey player in the world right now on the last place team what happens? I can guarentee you Lids has more impact on the last place team than the driver does on that car. If the car is not configured correctly it will not win, if a team is not configured correctly the players still can make it win and be difference makers, the driver is at the mercy of said s***ty car.

1. ii Besides catcher and maybe first base, Baseball is the least demanding sport of them all, I have played baseball, not nearly that demanding, I have played all positions except pitcher, baseball takes the least endurance out of every sport, well maybe being a soccer goalie (something else I did). BUT I would agree with your re-write of my sentence as that was the essence I was going for. 2. How often does a blown skate or busted stick impact the end result of a game? I can think of at least 5 races (I never watch NASCAR) that ended as a direct result of some one running out of gas or getting a flat tire on the last turn of the race let alone crashes during the race, blown engines, oil spills, etc.., my point is that IMO more often than not, the car/mechanics of the event have a broader and more far reaching impact than the equipment of a hockey player. In Hockey if you bust a stick on a slap shot you will either get plenty more opportunities or if you are in a position where at the last second you have the lead, go to clear the puck and your stick breaks you have a way to deal with that situation, you can clear it with a hand pass, kick it to a teammate, pinch it against the boards and wait for time to run out, get to the bench for another (depending on the situation) in nascar if you are on the final turn and run out of gas you better hope you can coast the rest of the way, there is no getting out and running to the finish line, the car dies you are out of the game, that doesn't happen in hockey unless the athlete themselves is injured. Worst case scenario in hockey, you have the lead, you go to clear the puck, and your stick breaks, tie game, you still have a chance to win. Not in NASCAR. I find there to be a distinct difference between a safe or out call in baseball and a 7.5 and a 8.5 in figure skating or any of the other judged events. Also if the pitch is called a strike once, you know to hit it the next time, you can adjust and continue to make plays and help you team win. If the judges thinks your handstand is crappy, and you do 15 of them in your routine you do not know until the end, too late! And more often than not s***ty calls go both ways, a strike zone good or bad is usually consistent. I hate no play in the world more than the "In the neighborhood play" at second base, I find it quite simple: on the bat out, off the bag safe. Why it is not called that way is beyond me, but other than rooting for the Red Sox, baseball bores the ever loving crap out of me, like basketball I can only watch my teams on TV, otherwise I go bat s*** crazy!! For instance, a judge in figure skating hands out a 7, do you know it should have been a 7.2? In football the ball distinctly crosses the goalline, the officials screw it up and say no touchdown, do the athletes have some form of complaint, a recourse, an avenue to get it corrected. Yes they do, because to err is human, and if the officials were as fast, strong, quick, had the instincts these guys do, they would not be officials, they would be players. I am not a huge fan of instant replay, but we are in a state where the athletes are so far and away superior to the officials that the officials are having a hard time keeping up. Which is a completely different topic altogether!! BUT as always, I stated these are my rules for something being a sport, I never said you shouldn't think it a sport, I simply stated why these things are true to me. Short story: NASCAR Drivers = Athletes NASCAR =/= Sport

Edit: before writing this response I didn't know that I had posted an incomplete thought, I thought Doggy was replying to only my first sentence. I retract this and if I had posted correctly half of this conversation would have been avoided! I wasn't saying it doesn't take athletic ability, I was listing that as my first criteria, gymnastics takes more athletic ability than driving a race car, driving a race car takes a hell of a lot more endurance, still in my book neither are sports. I explained my definition of a sport in a pretty logical way (at least I thought so) but you were so pent up on defending NASCAR you didn't process what I was saying. I agree Driving a race car takes a ton of athletic ability that is not why I said it wasn't a sport (In fact I stated it takes athletic ability, I said it wasn't due to the fact that more often than not the athlete has less to do with the outcome than the car. Lets stretch the realm of possibilty for a minute and make a fun analogy that makes no realistic sense. If the hockey puck were the equivalent to hockey what the car is to NASCAR the puck would have a motor on it and the players would all have remotes in their hands, the rule change would be that the closest player to the puck is the only player whose remote works. So I guess for me the reverse thinking would be that the car is the Hockey Player and the person is the puck. It is the car(more specifically the set up) that gets driver around the track, yes it takes skill and athletic ability to turn the wheel in that kind of G force and in that kind of heat, however it is not the driver's ability that makes the car go faster or slower than others, it may be their fears, however that won't have them racing very long. In NASCAR all of the cars are supposed to be very similar in horse power and down force etc..., yet a crew chief tweaks the car giving it an extra down turn (no clue what that means just heard it used) and that car can then handles better in the turns and is not loose coming out of the turns, is it the driver that won the race or the car or the crew chief? My issue with calling Nascar a sport is that more often than not the set up of the car determines how well the athlete does. Again this is my opinion and my analogy depicts my opinion, I am not saying it is the only way to think but is my opinion.

I think I mislead you Jarret_G I don't blame Hossa one bit for that play, much like most high sticks in the game, they are more often than not accidental contact, which I believe this was. I believe it should be going forward a penalty, I understand that the call at the time was 100% correct. I am not arguing for anything more than the 4 minutes it should have been, 2 for high stick 2 for blood = 4 minutes sin bin time! Bertuzzi started that mess, and jumped on top of Moore as he was falling to the ice, how come no one else ever gets hurt in pile ups of 4 or 5 players? Because when Moore was on his way down he landed on his neck with not just the force of his own weight falling 6 feet but that and the 250 pounds that came along with Bert and YES 100% unequivocally I blame Bert and he should never have played again! Bert wanted revenge for something, that in my opinion was a clean hit and his teammates fault for leaning down to get the puck, head on a swivel my man, head on a swivel. Bert got his revenge, in doing so he crippled a man. Now if you are talking about an injury from boarding, T. Roy style, then again, the boarding penalty and if the hit was deemed malicious the offender gets extra time or punishment, because it was part of the flow of the game, Bert went out of his way to chase down a guy who had already fought some one over the previous hit. Bert wasn't happy chased him down and crippled him. BERT SHOULD BE SUSPENDED FOR LIFE! Did Yelle get a tripping call? I am not saying Hossa should have been suspended for blinding a guy, I am saying what he did should fall under the high sticking rule, and it doesn't but should!

While NASCAR drivers may be athletic what they do does not fall under MY rules for a sport, much like figure skating is not a sport to me, follow closely. 1. Does it take athletic ability. i. because it takes athletic ability that does not automatically make it a sport, see dancing, hiking, nascar, diving, gymnastics, ballet, figure skating, synchronized swimming etc... ii. Not all sports are as athletically demanding as others, see baseball and golf as good examples. 2. Do the athletes involved determine the outcome of the activity. i. You may say a driver impacts the results, but he can be the best driver in the world, drive the car perfectly through every turn and a flat tire, empty gas tank, and/ or mechanical defect can control and often does control the outcome of the event, and more often than not has a bigger impact on how the results play out than the driver themselves. ii. Figure skating, diving, anything decided by a judge is in my opinion not a sport. a. You may say well the ref letting a puck played off of the netting count for a goal is impacting the result, yes I agree but he outcome is not decided by that one play, where as figure skating and others are decided based on an observers biases, the score comes directly from those people not by stepping on a base or by running a certain distance. 3. An athletic event is not a sporting event, and that is not meant to be an insult, have any of you ever had a friend or knew some one that did gymnastics. You may never see a more athletic specimen and a person in better shape than a gymnist, but guess what, gymnastics, not a sport in my book because their score comes directly from a judge, and a personal bias can impact their score more than their performance. But I will add this disclaimer, we all have our own biasess, if you are a NASCAR fan you are going to change your idea of what makes a sport, I find NASCAR boring as all hell, that doesn't make it less of a challenge to do, I find golf even more boring to watch and to play, doesn't make it not a sport. Also you may notice my first list of athletic events that are not sports synch. swimming, however I think swimming (olympics) is a sport

While NASCAR drivers may be athletic what they do does not fall under MY rules for a sport, much like figure skating is not a sport to me, follow closely. 1. Does it take athletic ability.

RE: bolded part This is what I think led to Ozzie having a bad angle. Don't get me wrong I am not saying the goal was all Hossa's fault and Ozzie never had a chance. But Hossa goes around the forward to the outside, giving Hartnell all the room he wants towards the net. I think Hossa (not his fault, good pass by Coburn and good positioning by Hartnell) just couldn't get to the position, however he was so close that I assumed he was going to get it. Maybe Ozzie did too, maybe not, I don't know. But Hossa going around to the outside of Hartnell was a little odd. On another Hossa note, did you notice after his second penalty he really seemed to be in another gear, he never potted one but damn he was almost as spectacular as Dats last night, he just missed the net a few times!

Maybe they meant at parenting? or Maybe they meant at Statue of Liberty plays at very pivotal moments of games? Or At not looking crazy? Or as a person? But I agree there is no way in hell they meant at being an NHL goaltender.

Scotzman, Nothing personal dude and maybe it was the way I read your post, but because I don't drop a lot of loot on a cheap ass replica (My dats Jersey from NHL.com is a lot cheaper material than my LITB Z jersey) that makes me an average NHL fan not a real NHL fan? Maybe you meant average fan as in the average fan lives on a budget, but I got to say that post seemed a little judgmental of people buying from this site, not the quality of items from the site.

Lidstrom

Get it in deep? off for a line change? he was standing in the slot attempting to shoot on net? Having a player fall onto your skate or a tip going into an eye are completely different than some one taking a slapshot and hitting a guy in the face with your stick. He had control(this we agree on) over his stick, Olli was falling to the ground after hitting some one, he had absolutely no control over his body, and homer has a lot less control over the deflection of his shot than we like to give him credit for, it has a lot to do with physics and there is no need to get into that now.

Count me as another one who thought Berard was going to be a beast. I really liked this guy, always pick him up in the NHL games. I felt really bad for him. MY G/f and I were talking about this last night (we often watch holy #@$!) the man has one perfect eye and one that only sees shapes and black or white. That must be one screwed up view of things. But then we started to talk about his career after the injury, he was able to still have a solid NHL career, not great, not horrible but solid. Imagine if he didn't get hurt. I also agree with Mack Attack, that was an out of control swing by hossa, and as much as it wasn't a penalty it should have been. Not a called penalty but in the rule book that should be a high sticking call, careless with the stick. I am sure Hossa felt bad and I am not saying it is suspension worthy or anything but it should have been 4 minutes High sticking.

The real question is: Does being a top 5 scorer and selke candidate make you eligible for MVP?

Downie's suspension upheld! Source, TSN

What a tool bag Downie is, did he think no one would notice, that people would actually think he was trying to win the face off!!

Where I am from this right here is what we call a Tell-Tale sign of things to come, and what is to come, no hockey in Phoenix!

I root for former UMaine guys (and a former Portland Pirate at that) to be in the winged wheel as hard as I can, however this has Grigs written all over, only difference, Penner proved he could hack it one year in the big show. IF Penner had this kind of year his RFA year he would be on a 2 mil contract at most, absolute and utter max for him would be 2, he would be lucky to see 1 mil. His work ethic has become deplorable, well I shouldn't say that I don't see him work out (or not work out) everyday, or at all for that matter, but his shape is starting to look a little like mine and let me tell you while round is a shape it is not in shape!

I started last year saying he was expendable on this roster, with the development of Mule, Flip, Huds, and now Helm, Leino, Abdelkader Sammy is very expendable. Is he a solid player and does he do a good job on this team? yes, is he trade able? yes was he last year? no. I just want Big Rig's booming shot on the point, ala Schnieds. Not a fan of Sammy on the point, but he gets the job done, but with Rig being lefty it probably won't happen!

Kansas City Islanders is not worse than Oklahoma City Thunder!

Meech, Quincey (already is), Lebda, Cheli will all be gone next year. The Wings can not let Ericsson sit in GR anymore, this is his last year, and I can not believe they are willing to part with him in any way shape or form, PP2 Kronwall and Ericsson, mmm, mmm, mmm, what do ya say!!

Perfect!!!!!! Sir Drake(or was it sir dallas) oh how we miss you!!!

My favorite Dan Cleary Highlight right there. AWESOME HIT!! EDIT: I love how in the slow motion you can see how distant his eyes are, he just about watches Drapers shove that puck in and his mind can not act quick enough to do anything about it. As Mike Goldberg and Joe Rogan would say "HE IS ROCKED!, he is in serious trouble right now!"