Opie

So when he is a 4 mil cap hit scoring 10-15 in a few years is he still worth it? When he is 36/37 will he still be worth the 4 mill cap hit? How about at age 40 or 41? BTW even if he is not playing the Wings are still paying! (EDIT: He will be a cap hit, not actually being paid) That is the problem with this whole he is worth the cap hit logic, but at that point you will probably change your stance to he is worth his paycheck. But that is why the teams went long term like this, it benefits the player (good money, never look for a contract again) and the team (cap circumvention). Franzen will be getting paid 5 mil for the next 3 seasons, when he turns 37 he will be getting paid 3.5, all with a 4 mil cap hit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now back to comparable players, how about Hossa. Roughly $300,000 more on the cap hit and his numbers destroy Franzen's. (EDIT #2 D'oh Hossa's cap hit is roughly 1.3M higher, but still under 6 mil) Since 08-09 (I used that time frame in my early post: Goals Hossa: 135 Mule: 115 Assists Hossa: 152 Mule: 107 PPG Hossa .90 Mule: .76 PIMs Hossa: 149 Mule: 205 His salary is nearly identical to Mule's in term and money. I will wait for the reason why Hossa does not meet you narrow requirements for a replacement. Probably too many assists!

Franzen's does not struggle with consistency, he struggles with motivation. He at times flat out doesn't care, has no effort, and has admitted as much, his coach has said as much. Lets not confuse Franzen's lackadaisical style of play for lack of consistency! As I have said I would rather have a guy like Oshie battle inconsistency while playing solid D in all zones, forechecking, and making a difference over Franzen's (or anyone else for that matter) floating. What USED to be his saving grace was "Playoff Beast Mode" as another poster pointed out, but now even that is not happening. If you could make Clutch a stat 4 years ago his playoffs would have been the definition, now when the Wings need him most (CHI series) how many did he score? But the Franzen debate will go on forever like the Feds debate, some people can put up with minimal effort at times, while others (like me) have very little tolerance for it. Edit: Roy may be small but he and Franzen play at about the same size, and I would not say Franzen is a beast in his own zone!

You are picking certain stats (goals) and ignoring other ones (assists, Pims, ppg). Franzen does nothing but score (once and a while). Oshie, while scoring less does more and costs the same. Same with Roy. Did you forget I mentioned the Sedins, Lucic, Sharp, Kane, Toews, Richards? (All at 6 mil which was your original requirement which is why that list has more expensive players, you set this I did not) I picked Oshie and Roy because they are similar cap hits and similar PPG. You picked out a few, which I am willing to debate with you, but you picked your stats and players that fit your argument. My point/contention has not been that mule is streaky (your words) but that his effort is hit or miss. With Oshie and Roy you will get more effort and similar production. But lets play by your rules: Max Pacioretty's last two seasons were better than Mule and his salary and cap hit is 4m. Plus when was the last time Franzen has 60+ points as you pointed out in the original post I quoted? Hockeydb only has him hitting 59 once (one of only two times his point total exceeded his PIMS), I don't really like my sniper to have more PIMs than Points.

Love this part: Now if Babs could just have that meeting with 93 that would be great!

I know your statement was aimed at another poster, but here you go: Stats since 08-09 (Oshie's first year) Player /age >> GP >> Goals >> assists >> Pims >> PPG Mule/33 >> 292 >> 115 >> 107>> 205 >> .76 TJ Oshie/26 >> 292 >> 70 >> 125 >> 146 >> .66 Derek Roy/30 >> 319 >> 88 >> 158 >> 162 >> .77 Cap Hit Mule = $3.95, actual salary = 5 m, Team Cap % = 6.96 Oshie = $4.175, Actual 4 m, Team Cap % = 5.95 Roy = 4m, Actual 4m, Team Cap % = 6.22 I would take either Oshie or Roy's effort over Franzen's any day of the week. Now I get that they all make less than 6mil which was one of your original requirements but here are just some names with 6m cap hits who I would take over Franzen: (look at these names, why you picked 6 mil I am not sure) Milan Lucic, Taylor Hall, Zetterberg, the Sedin twins, Patrick Sharp, Mike Richards, Toews, Kane, Tavares. Then there are guys that depending on the day I may take over Mule: J. Staal, Tyler Sequin, Zajac, St.Louis, Jeff Skinner. Now can we stop saying that for the money there is no one as good as Mule, because even at a 4m cap hit he is not the discount people think. The fact he is actually paid 5m puts him in the company of a lot better players, with a lot more desire.

And here is where a lot of Franzen is like Player X comparisons fail, when Z is not scoring, or as you say taking "days off", he is still one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Franzen when not scoring is one of the biggest wastes of space on the ice. All you really need to see is him with the puck between the red line and the offensive blue line, if he flips it in the zone and barely skates after it, you are not getting much from him that game. If he protects the puck and gains the zone, or dumps and chases it, you know he is in the game mentally. However, when he is not "in it to win it" he is better served in the press box. I also do not understand the posts about him having size and play maker ability. When he loafs, he does not create plays, and he almost never uses his size, so how skills he doesn't really use make up for him taking shifts and games off is really confusing to me. As I have said numerous times on this forum, you take Franzen and give him Tootoo, Abby, Cleary, or Helm's heart and desire and you have an all world talent. As it is right now, you have a very talented player who often times has little effort and desire. I can excuse a lack of talent, like Helm's hands of stone, he just doesn't have hands of a Franzen or Bertuzzi even, but I have a very hard time excusing lack of effort!

I like this posts, just because you are helping out!

LOL, Can this guy sign a deal that doesn't break some sort of rules? You know when anything hockey related in Russia is being "questioned" that it must be real bad. The weird part is the other players, none of them deserve any special treatment. I mean I get it, if you own a KHL team you do everything you can to get a guy like Kovy, but Babchuk or Burmistrov, not sure I bend the rules for them!

I will believe this is his last season when he retires officially after whichever season ends up as his last and then doesn't stage a mid season comeback! Edit this man still has the best goal celebration ever with this one:

Now you know why I made sure to point out that it is not my work. I probably could have written a VB app that could do the math for me, but no way I can do the math!!!

Or at least make it the equivalent proportionately. A little work on google found me this: I didn't double check the math.

He did it for this reason:

The nice thing about that is next years UFA class (at this point in time) looks like a pretty decent list. Not saying the WIngs should go after Jumbo Joe, but there is some decent talent heading to UFA next year. And the Wings will have money to spend when they shed a few albatrosses of contracts!

Not sure this deserved its own thread, but looks like Melnyk is doing some shady stuff: http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/8/25/4657074/travis-yost-hacked-eugene-melnyk-ottawa-senators-finances

After seeing what Grabo got, I think this is pretty spot on, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a real hard time getting a multi year deal at this point, unless it is for like $1.5m. I think the agent was whispering all the right words into Brunner's ears, I just think with it being a shortened lockout year, teams are going to be hesitant to jump all over a guy.

You forgot step 5, repeat the process in less than 10 years!

Here we go: 1. I never said it would be for all teams, it is just the way it is done in Det. So your Iginla comparison is a moot point, much like saying because COL retired Ray Bourque's number Det should retire Shanny's. But to play along: IF Iginla was drafted by the Wings and left at the end of his career, maybe his number gets up there like Howe, however if Iginla was on the Wings, and as loyal to them as he was to Calgary. he more than likely wins at least one cup and due to the org doing what they did for him, probably never leaves. But the difference between them and the reason your comparison makes no sense is Shanny played for other teams both before and after the Wings, Iginla was drafted and only played for Calgary until the twilight of his career, never asking to be traded or complaining until they rebuilt yet again around him. 2. What people tend to forget about the different era's is the different owners. Many players left Detroit due to ownership being complete A-holes. I suggest reading "What it means to be a Red Wing". And you will realize many of those guys you mentioned above left due to the Norris family being complete and utter ****** Canoes! If you do not have an understanding of how the Norris family ruled this organization you really should not comment on players leaving during that era and getting their #s retired. 3. You can speculate about what would have or would not have happened if Yzerman leaves or the Wings botch the draft, that does not change the fact that in the Illitch era in order to get your # retired you need to be the embodiment of what it means to be Red Wing. If Yzerman leaves in his mid thirties with no cup, his number does not end up in the rafters, not saying he doesn't still go into the HOF, but he doesn't end up as THE Captain, and 19 is not in the rafters. Again though your argument is moot because Yzerman won a cup in his early 30's. But the reverse is true as well, if Lids and Yzerman don't take pay cuts and don't make the sacrifices they made the Organization is not what it is. That is what puts Yzerman and Lids in the rafters and guys like Ozzie, Draper, and Shanny will always be looking up at the rafters. Edit: BTW; this is not my opinion on how # retirements should or will go after the Illitch family hands over the reigns, but is just my take on how they do it currently and why players in the past that may have played on other teams are in the rafters!

Oh boy when does league expand, I think adding more teams to the league while others cannot pay for the ones they already have is a great idea! /sarcasm I am not even taking into consideration the talent pool being extremely watered down if you add another 40 players to the league (who by the way are currently not good enough to be on a roster)!

What is to stop Chris Chelios from wearing a 5 jersey in a beer league and thus no longer allowing the WIngs to retire it? You argument is as valid as mine above, neither of them are in the realm of possible. (if you think about Lids you will realize there is no way he is coming back, let alone to another team) The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB. That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings. BUT... Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.

If I could like this 100 times I would!!

Not sure if this is still the thread for this but: http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/8/5/4590304/nhl-free-agency-alexei-ponikarovsky-khl-new-jersey-devils Another Devil headed for the KHL.

Those last three may not be in circulation, but as long as Mike I owns the team you will not see them in the rafters.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/19/fedorov-we-had-the-chance-to-bring-datsyuk-to-khl/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

So lets say in 3 years he is gone, do they put all the posters and stuff back up?

This has been posted on Yahoo: I found it hilarious. Enjoy. Edit: Dammit, I can never imbed youtube vids correctly!