Opie

Really? The only enforcers in the league can not score?? Really is that your stance?? WOW, maybe I have thug/goon confused with with what you call an enforcer. Here I stole this from GS&T Thanks GS&T

First off I am not trying to say he is not a fan favorite, he should be with his lunch pail attitude, however fan voting almost got Rory Fitzpatrick to the All star game, it almost got the Habs as the starting 5 in the all star game. Lets not get to carried away with fan voting as it has been proven some one with a little know how and a batch file can rig online voting. I missed the last game, Downey scored and an assist, great, this is what I want from an enforcer, that is what 3 points in his last 3 games, ABSOLUTELY F---ING FANTASTIC I am happy, I want an enforcer that puts up points. Now if he can get hot and pot 2-3 more goals pick up 3-5 more assists before the season is over, SWEET! Pen him into the Postseason line up and call LGW happy! The enforcers would get their enforcer and the supposed anti-enforcers would get the enforcer that puts points up.

Sorry for lying to you Esteef this is my last post until Monday. Please go back and read the entire thread, when did I say you could or couldn't enjoy anything, when did I say fighting shouldn't be tolerated or enjoyed. I didn't my take the whole time is that enforcers don't stop anything. You after cleverly creating a new login, which no one would ever expect mmuahahhahahahaah, are here yet again trying to incite a reaction out of me, you got it the last time, not any more. You need to be banned via your ip address because you sir are the very defintion of a troll.

I know this will sadden you but I have to go so this is my last post until Monday. Not banned this time, going to Maine to visit the fam! So if you had multiple examples where players said they intended to shove a stick straight up someone's ass but didn't because Downey was on the ice you wouldn't think that proof? Because you don't have an example from every possible situation, you wouldn't think that proved your point, even if just one person said it? Some one made the posts that Enforcers stopped cheapshots, you yourself are saying they don't. Why are you harping on me, I didn't see you calling anyone else out who think empirically that fighting stops things. Why? No clue? How many times in last years 50+ games Downey played in did Homer get cheap shots(that would be every game based on your def of cheap shots)? How many times did Downey do anything about it? But seriously though good example! Your opinion is better to have one than not, my opinion is it is better not to have one than one that plugs up the bench sees 4 minutes of ice time and then someone from a far more important line and role has to cover some 6 minutes he can't. I am not saying enforcers are useless which is something you can't get over. Follow closely, here are my stances. 1. Enforcers do not stop cheap shots, they are useful to a team, but they do not stop cheap shots. 2. Downey is a 4 minute a game player with an upside of 3-5 points. The Wings would be better served with Kopecky in his spot even if they score the same amount of points. I feel this way because Kopecky plays nearly 10 minutes a game, 6 minutes that would allow another top line forward to rest. Please don't confuse the idea that I think Downey is not a good option with me thinking enforcers are useless. I never said they were useless, just that they don't prevent cheap shots. My favorite non wing is Lucic because he brings the fists and the stick. BTW My point in bolding the sentence to GS&T was so that he could see it, not trying to prove a point. In the Hossa fight thread that I have now referenced 3 times I said I would be fine with Neil and many other enforcers, I don't care as long as the Wings are winning. It could be Downey for all I care but My opinion is that I would rather Dats, Z, Hossa or others get the rest they need between shifts than have Downey out there just in case. In fact in this very thread I actually stated that I wish Kopecky brought the skills Downey does because he could at least skate a regular shift.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Great quote better movie!!! I have a buddy of mine that used that line the day our Boss told us he got laid off! Then as he walked away I said, "you smell that, Smells like some one died!" Then we went off on this whole quoting the movie Tangent that had nothing to do with my boss. Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled postings!

Downey plays 4 minutes a game and scores 3 points if lucky a year, what other enforcers do that, I didn't say goon. Chris Neil, hold on wait I have an easier way to do this, Hey GS&T no enforcer in the league can score, they all suck. Now watch the list he comes up with to prove me wrong. Agreed but here is where you see it differently than I do. Downey was in the lineup in the last game against Colorado, he received a cheap shot, what did he stop? The Avs game before that he wasn't in the lineup how many cheap shots occurred. See you have to prove intent, you have to prove that a player intended to hurt some one but didn't because Downey was in the game. All I have to do is point to a game in which an enforcer was dressed and some one took a cheap shot. I have done that, there fore it proves that having an enforcer in the game does not prevent anything. I don't have to prove intent because, the intent to injure is there in the malicious action. That is the belief that I have, that if an enforcer is in the game and another player two hands some one across the face they stopped nothing, much like not having an enforcer stopped nothing nor created nothing.

I didn't say the lack of evidence proved any of us right, but it has been proven that even with an enforcer in the game on the ice players will take cheap shots, how is that not proof. I am not the one asserting it stops anything, I said it didn't and I can back it up, with two examples both involving Lappy and Downey? There are plenty others, I have two hard examples of how an enforcer stopped nothing, how many examples do you have of it stopping anything, you don't because first you would have to prove that some one intended to run at a player, good luck proving intent. How many Wings players have been hit cheap this year? Two Lebda and Downey, Lebda delivered a hard hit before it and should have been looking out for it. Downey it was carry over from last year, so what exactly should Downey have been in the line up to prevent this year? What could he have prevented, Homer's injury, Hossa sliding into the boards????? I am curious because with a team as stacked offensively as this years wings, that can only seem to win when the O is firing on all cylinders, and this board admits that there is no enforcer in the lineup, shouldn't this team be riddled with injuries, because surely these vicious cheap shots and runs at players would have injured one or two wings by now, thus making them much easier to beat. I have heard them all guys, from it is entertaining, to it is embarrassing, to it is necessary, but none of you can back up your statements with anything other than I don't get it, or they are necessary look other teams have them, yeah but no other team has 4 cups in recent past. Listen if this team looked exactly like the Champion Ducks, I would have no problem with it, because it has proven to win, I would still support the Wings. But they don't, and I can see why.

Jesus dude we have been over this 75,000 times, how is it I know your stance and you still don't know mine. Follow along carefully. How many teams have enforcers that can play more than 4 minutes a game and add more than 3 points a season? Answer, almost all! It is not that I don't see the value in a fighter getting retribution, it is that I think it is only retribution. (My enforcers stance) I think Downey is only capable of fighting that is my problem with him. (My Downey stance) You are trying to take my two stances and make them one. I think that there are enforcers on other teams that get retaliation as well as being able to put the biscuit in the basket, in the Hossa fight thread (that I already linked forever ago) I stated I am fine with the Wings' bringing in an enforcer if he the Wings keep winning. My preference is that said player can do something besides 4m/g and 3 pts/season. If Downey is on the roster the entire post season and the Wings win the cup, super duper. If they don't win the cup it will suck just as much as if he weren't on the team. But I won't blame him, the difference is if they do you will give credit to the fact that an enforcer is in the lineup, much like some on here blame Cujo for an early Playoff exit when the rest of the team sucked too! But I am not deluded with the thought that Downey is the missing piece, even if you put him in for Kopecky, it hurts the team, now you have first and second liners doing more and logging more minutes and as Babcock put it best last year after a loss to the Pens in the SCF,(Paraphrase) when Dats and Z are out there trying to do too much we lose, he wanted shorter shifts and more 4 line rolling. Having Downey would appear to go against that theory. The instigator rule hasn't changed much really, really? So when Probie and Kocur were in fights they got a 2 min instigator AND a 10 minute misconduct really?? I seem to see a lot of knew for 2005-06, just me! Source Here is one example of how it is different now:

True, but lets play this game for a minute. Downey punches Lappy in the face, breaks his orbital bone, shatters his jaw. YEAH WINGS!!!!!! WHOO HOO, oh but wait it was retaliation so what happened to cause this, oh Lappy cross checking Zetterberg in the grill, oh wait so Downey didn't prevent s***, he got retribution, which by the way only works if Downey whoops his ass. Lets say, after last year, when Downey goes after Lappy, Lappy destroys him in two punches, what good has it done? Downey has taught Lappy the invaluable lesson that as long as Downey is on the ice/roster he can do whatever the hell he wants, because his punishment for hitting Z was getting to punch some one out cold. The answer to cheap shots is not a fighter it is the league cracking down on it, but instead they suspend Simon almost 10 times as long as Pronger for the same act and the same amount of offenses. The instigator rule has made it so the only way a fight is going to happen is when two guys at the dot decide to go at it. Otherwise it is 17 minutes worth of crap dealt out to the guy trying to defend his teammate. And then lets look at the results: The Wings lose a top 10 player in the NHL due to a cheapshot, the player who did it gets 2 minutes for slashing, Downey goes out and gets the retribution we all want (make no mistake I want retribution too, I just don't think an enforcer stops anything), he gets 17 minutes, the Wings have lost 2 players one of which is a top shelf talent, one is their enforcer. The other team has lost most likely a fourth liner. Way to cover up, oh that is what I meant the whole time, ha ha ha I am smart S>M>R>T Smart! Seriously dude, between this and the Fedorov threads you would think we would reach the outcome that we have a difference of opinion. But way to dodge my point, here lets try this again: WHAT WAS LAPPY DOING SO EFFECTIVELY THAT DOWNEY YAPPING AT HIM RENDERED HIM USELESS? Because in order to be rendered useless you must have been doing something good to begin with right? So was he all over the ice crosschecking, butt ending, charging people, boarding, slashing, spearing? Surely if Downey's mere presence/words were enough to render him useless he must have been doing something before that. And again the only reason Lappy even tried s*** was because it was the first time him and Downey saw each other since last year.

Weren't you suspended for a month? Now leave me alone, you have posted nothing but things trying to incite me like you did two weeks ago, post something besides I love it when Opie.. blah blah and add something to the conversation. You haven't proven me wrong once in the Hossa fight thread or this one, you make up s***, try to apply it to the conversation and say you won. Good job skippy, now I think I heard a bell, go check I think the fries are down.

The rehab in GR I completely agree with you on, rehabbing a knee should not happen with the big club. HOWEVER... that was a decision the team had to make in the preseason as sending Kopecky down would have meant he were exposed to waivers, and while you may not see a problem with that, the powers that be had one. To tell you the truth the whole discussion of Downey up or down and the Kopecky debate are both actually outcomes of the same problem, Marion Hossa. The team decided having Hossa and being in cap hell, not being able to dress Downey or Mac was better than playing without Hossa and having d-mac and Downey. Now it is not that simple, obviously, but the root cause of Downey being in the AHL all season (along with Leino, Abdelkader, and Helm) is based on cap issues. Otherwise I think you would have seen Downey and Mac with a total of about 50 games between them, and with Mac's injury it would have been Downey in about 70% of those games. I also agree with you that he is not one of the best fourth line options in the league, but I will contend he is the best option the Wings have, under cap rules. BTW Dats and Hossa would turn me into an all star, I would have so many goals and assists that just happen to hit my stick on their way to the goal or intended passer, s*** I bet after a day of practice they would be able to use my stick by passing off of it better than I could by using my stick to try and do something.

1. Yes I do think that enforcers are a part of hockey that doesn't prevent anything and never have, they gained retaliation, they gave the other team a sense that you better not do that again. - A couple of points of interest from that sentence I want to emphasize: --I used past tense, due to rule changes in the game enforcers have been rendered about 1/8th as effective as they used to be. -- the last word is again, an enforcer goes out and fights someone after something has happened, well, if nothing has happened yet what exactly is the enforcer stopping. Nothing, even in the old days, guys didn't just drop the gloves because they wanted to prove to the other team don't mess with us we have player x, it was you did something, don't do it again. 2. Did Retaliation stop Claude Lemieux? Steve Downie? Would you rather see a league with more and more Simon, Downie (note the spelling please, not you GMR but others), and Boulerice type players? Until the instigator rule is taken away guys like Simon, Downie and Boulerice will continue to exist. You keep comparing Hockey from decades ago, things have changed, not sure that you noticed or not, there is this thing called the instigator rule that took the ability to police the game out of the players hands, as long as that rule is in place, guys like Downey (note spelling) will not prevent anything, because even if Steve Downie got punched in the face by Aaron Downey, he is still going to run around two handing people. McCarty got retribution from Lemieux, right? Lemieux didn't think he did anything wrong and thinks Mac is in the wrong for jumping him. What good did that do? Was it entertaining as hell, you bet you ass it was, did having Mac on the team stop anything? But I have conceded to you since last post season, that if you want to admit fighting is entertaining and that is why you like it, I can't have a problem with that, it is what entertains you and many others, but when you say an enforcer prevents cheap shots that I don't believe true.

How did Lilja get hurt, was it a cheap shot, no, so what in the hell does this have to do with the topic of conversation. He got hurt trying to be an enforcer, so if the argument was having Downey in the lineup to fight means he would have to deal with the injuries that come from fighting instead of some one like Lilja, then yes I agree. However, last I checked the topic was whether or not Downey prevents Cheap shots and injuries that result from said cheap shots. Whether or not Lilja should or should not have been in that fight is not part of this conversation.

So what you are telling me is that Downey prevented Raycroft, Smith, Salei, Svatos, etc from taking a shot at Zetterberg, or are you willing to admit that there are some players regardless if Downey or you or I are on the ice are not going to take cheap shots. If so than that limits the Avs to lappy, (and who else? Ben Guite) who had a previous issue with Downey and took a cheap shot, what if that cheap shot messes up Downey's back, and he can't chirp back at him what then, who then will the Wings get to prevent Milan Hejduk and Paul Statsny from injuring the Red Wings. Get it, there are some people who will not cheap shot, then there are players who will cheap shot, BTW I don't think Lappy's first hit on Lids was cheap last year, clean hit, bad spot for Lids. It didn't look as though the intent to hurt was there, to me! If Lappy or Tucker want to Cheap shot Dats or Lids or Z or Hossa do you really think the thought of being punched in the face (mind you these guys fight more than they do cheap shot) will deter them from hitting, NO!! And before Downey chirped at him by the bench whom else was Lappy cheap shotting, how much of an impact was he having before the incident by the benches??? Surely if he was rendered useless, honestly, by Downey what was he doing so well before hand? What exactly happened in the last Wings Avs game that Downey should have prevented? The Shoot out loss? The unsportsmanlike conduct from Hannan? The only reason there was any altercation in the most recent game was in fact because Downey was on the ice, for the first time since their last meeting, other than that there was no cheap shots, Lappy wasn't running around cross checking people in the back was he? Enforcers do not prevent, they enforce a penalty for the behavior you displayed. Much like Law Enforcement officers enforce the law after you have committed a crime. The penalty may prevent you or I from doing something, but the enforcer doesn't stop you, when you see a cop do all of the sudden stop speeding for the rest of the day, no you wait until he can't get you. With a guy like Downey he can only get you 4 minutes out of 60. He could slow down Lappy when he is on the ice, but then again when Downey is on the ice who out there would you be worried that would get hurt? Do you really think players that get hit in the face with sticks, hands, elbows, pucks and other pieces of equipment and who willingly fight others are thinking , Man I better be careful around Zetterberg tonight, Downey is on the roster. NO! If Hannan or lappy want to take Z out they will, and then when Downey gets 5 for fighting, 2 for instigation, and a 10 min misconduct, they will take there 5 for fighting and think Damn I got rid of Zetterberg, took a couple of punches, got Downey out of the game, now the wings are down two players (one happens to be top 10 ) and have to kill a penalty without Z. [sarcasm] You are right, I now see how an enforcer stops cheap shots, ever wonder why they are called enforcers not preventors, I mean because surely Probie being on the team stopped everyone from ever touching Steve Yzerman, no one ever went after him with a dirty, cheap or late hit, right????? [/sarcasm]

If I am not mistaken the US team thought they needed a win to advance but I could be wrong. They lost 3-2 in that game and still managed the 2nd spot, the fins were 2-2 in pool play while the US was 2-1-1. But I believe at the time the Swiss (who ended 1-2-1 and on the outside looking in) were about to play the Fins for the last game and all 3 were endanger of being tied for 2nd. So going into the last 2 games the US would have been 2-0-1, the Fins 1-2-0, and the Swiss at 1-1-1. Now that I look at it, they must have just been playing for the seed, worst case scenario they would have been 2-0-2 with the Swiss winning they would have been 2-1-1 and Fins would have been 1-3-0, US is still in even if both games end in a tie, US 2-0-2, Fins 1-2-1, Swiss 1-1-2 the US is still in. Right: Can 3-0-1 US 2-0-2 Swiss 1-1-2 Fins 1-2-1 Nor 0-4-0 Hmm, weird! Must have been going for a higher seed!

That is too bad, you would like to see the guy at least get to finish his last season!

No harm no foul, that last post was supposed to be a joke, but was a not funny, poorly written one at that!!! I post crap all of the time, in a hurry, busy at work, whatever reason where I don't mean it, and I honestly expected your answer to be, I was exaggerating. Sorry if I was too abrasive!

So no pics of the tattoo?

Well put, after your thoroughly thought out and well written response I see your point and agree that, oh wait do you even remember what your point was, because you did nothing to further you argument other than try to focus people on me. I am not the one that engaged this conversation, you don't like the way I post, sorry, a lot of people don't like my abrasive nature, but I have also found that a lot of people also have a hard time hearing things bluntly, unfortunately I don't do subtle very well! At least I clarified my point, you just have avoided the debate you started. EDIT The following was a confusion between two threads. You called me out as being against rough hockey because you know sooooo much about my posting or my thoughts, yet you have no clue what I think, you saw one post in one thread in which I showed Kopecky hitting some one and staying on their feet, because said poster said he couldn't do exactly thatstates an enforcer will stop nothing. From that you infer that I think Kopecky is going to be better than Penner, that I don't like rough hockey, when I defend my point you are calling me abrasive. You called me out because I said Downey is not going to stop anything on the ice, he will however get retribution for the dirty act. Not sure how that turned into I hate rough hockey! You have no clue! But........ Good try Skippy!!

Chill man, deep breath and then read: The intent of the video I posted was because some one stated: I then posted the requisite one video showing he needed to back up his internet toughness with a tattoo he was wrong, Kopecky can hit and stay on his feet afterward. You then claim that 99% of his hits are worthless, you have a specific number, so I ask you to back it up, if it is your opinion fine, but don't originally state it as fact and expect me to let your hyperbole pass as fact. Did I compare Penner and Kopecky? Nope! Did I say because he picked up a couple of points he was a power forward? Nope. All I did was post a video proving a poster wrong. You then jumped on my post, and assume I think all of these things about Kopecky, all I did was prove he can make one hit and stay on his feet, and now that poster should get a tattoo because they were proven wrong. s*** I never even mentioned your name or anything you posted. ***What in the hell is that last sentence supposed to mean? Hyperbole, Facetious, and Exaggeration are all part of High School Sophmore English curriculum (at absolute most), I am well past high school so knowing those words does not take a dictionary, nor did it even take spell check?????***

I am against rough hockey huh, you have been reading this site so long you must also know that I hate Milan Lucic too right? I don't hate rough hockey nor am I against it. I am against the idea that an enforcer prevents anything, if you also have followed my posts so closely you would have read the thread 2 weeks ago that I got suspended out off. The Hossa fight thread where I stated I don't care what the name on the back of the Jersey says as long as the wings keep winning. You probably also missed the part of this last post where I said I wish the Wings had some one that could bring Downey's energy in regular shifts. You know this: Yup you know so much about me that the conclusion you just drew is so far off based you have no clue what you are talking about! Good try Skippy! I am not against having an enforcer who does more than sit the bench. Read the Hossa Fight Video Thread, where GS&T and others threw names of enforcers at me and I stated, I am fine with an enforcer as long as the Wings win, I am fine with a sniper as long as the Wings win, I am fine with a power forward as long as the Wings win, I am fine with a dangler as long as the Wings win. My problem with Downey is Downey specific, not enforcer based. My point in this thread was simply that an enforcer prevents nothing, including said enforcer getting run at. It provides retribution, and if you want retribution fine, but I am not willing to give a spot to a guy who plays 4 minutes a night and messes up the rotation of the lines.

I agree guys that have proven they can play on the second line, and one guy that for all intense and purposes looks like a solid 3rd line center. I would take that 4th line any day of the week!

Well actually I only looked for one video because the poster said if he hit once without falling down he would get a tattoo, therefore he should but his back where his mouth is and get a tattoo. But seeing as you are so sure the 99% of his hits are pathetic why not back up YOUR OPINION with some facts? 99% is a pretty high number are you sure you weren't being facetious? Hyperbole? Exaggerating? OR are 99% of his hits really useless? Prove it. I am not on the Kopecky bandwagon, more the "Putting LGW Hyperbole that becomes belief to rest" that is all, same thing I did over the past two seasons for Sammy. For clarification: My video was in response to :

Not to beat a dead horse, but whom does Downey keep honest? Did he stop Lappy from taking a run at him last game, did he stop Lappy last year when lappy hit Lids, answer No. He does not keep anyone honest other than an honest player, he will not prevent the cheap shot, he will however gain retribution for the hit, which is always nice, but just so we don't get confused: Downey stops cheapshots from people who wouldn't give them to begin with. A Downey/enforcer type player will not stop a Lappy or Neil etc. Having said that, he does have great energy and it would be nice to get a that from a guy like Kopecky who plays regular shifts, but he is not preventative medicine like the flu shot, he is more like Nyquil, he helps take care of the problem after it happens and it makes you sleep better at night.

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