Opie

Warning this post not safe for children: This is the last time I respond to you, if you have ******* problem with the type of hockey I like too ******* bad! I have a difference of opinion with almost everyone on this board, you want to claim I know nothing than instead of throwing your piece of s*** opinion out there ever time try some ******* facts. Where you able to sell your tickets, yes, well then guess what jack ass you just proved your own point wrong, because you don't want to go doesn't mean others don't. You really honestly think in an economy like this the only reason the seats are empty is fighting, you sir are a tool, and a ****** bag! You want to keep guessing at how long I have been a fan, because I will tell you this much you are way off! Take your I am always right holy than thou attitude and shove it straight up your ass. You don't like the way the wings have been winning over the past 15 years, well guess what pal, it is not changing any time soon, get used to it, cry about it, build a ******* bridge and then get over it. I have said this 85 ******* times how in the hell you are allowed to post here when all you do is flame is beyond me. Don't bother replying I won't read it!!

GS&T, Let me explain it from my side, your last sentence is exactly what I would want in a fighter. The problem with this argument is that it is either all or nothing for both sides, according to the other side. (Sorry if that is confusing) Pro figthing thinks those of us that don't want Downey in the line up is because we are soft, *****, weak, like Euro soft hockey, etc..... The Anti Fighting crowd thinks all the fighting crowd wants is a team full of goons. Look instead of celebrating the fact that Hossa won a fight we are all in here arguing again about the importance of fighting. My question is what happens to the argument if the Wings win the cup this year? Then each of the crowds will have their poster team, the fighting crowd will have the cup winning ducks and the anti crowd will have the cup winning wings. The argument will get worse not better. You said Clowe up above, I would gladly take him Lucic, but as we have all already said those players are few and far between. Here is where the gripe begins, we (anti-fighting) would rather not grab a fighter in that case, and you (fighting crowd) think anything is better than nothing. I just care about the W at the end of the day. If it is a bunch of Mike Ricci specialties I don't care, if it is Dats and Z and Hossa on break aways all day making the goalie look foolish, I don't care, if the wings break 4 noses and knock out 6 of the opponents teeth I don't care as long as it is a W! Some people won't be happy with a W even a 6-2 drubbing that involved a fight, still not enough for some people, this thread is proof of it!

No, you don't just want some one to stand up, other wise the 6-8 fights, however many of them, would be enough. Which situations should the Wings this year have fought some one over. Lebda, that was retaliation for his hard hit, he should have been ready for that, after all isn't that what you want a fighter for, retaliation/revenge/retribution? Also Hossa standing up would be enough. YOU WANT FIGHTING, lots of it, just admit, it is ok really. I like fighting, but I want a fighter on my team who can do more than an aged D-mac and a 4 minute a night Aaron Downey can do. I respect Downey a lot more than I did last year, but lets be honest this team wins on offense most nights and offense alone. You take out one skater even Kopecky, and now you have to have people playing extra minutes every night to cover for the fact Downey can not skate from his own blue line to center ice with the puck on his stick. Not sure if you can prove this theory, in order to do so you would have to take this years Wings and turn them into the Ducks by next season and see if it changes the results, I will tell you this much a fight in any sport will get people out of their seats, we pretend to be a peaceful nation but we love our violence as much as the next. Hell Pre-season baseball fights get people out of their seats and most of the time during those games everyone is asleep! But I have a hard time buying that the Joe would be sold out on all nights in this market where the auto industry is laying off more people than the banks are getting one dollar bills from the gov't. Your theory is a thinly veiled attempt at making a point no one can argue with because it is both indisputable and unprovable at the same time!

Lets see the Wings won 6-2, most important, they didn't back down to an attempt to physical them out of the game, 2nd most important, and they had someone fight, least important (of the 3). I find it amazing that with 3 landed punches Hossa doesn't prove the wings don't need an enforcer, no no not on this board. The fact that a player who can score, pass, play defense, and throw the knuckles when needed to signifies to some of you that we need Aaron Downey??? Screw that if Hossa wants to drop every now and again to prove a point, yet score nearly 50 goals I am all for it. I have been saying all along an enforcer is fine with me as long as they can do something besides fill up a spot on the bench for 88% of the game, and spend another 6% in the bin and only 6% on the ice. Sure bring up Aaron Downey, great idea!! I can not wait to see the posts from the [sarcasm]"Pro Old Time Hockey" [/sarcasm] crowd when Marian Hossa wills this team to a cup. Mark my words right now, this guy wins Conn Smythe and has a monster of a playoff. (That fight proved how devoted to this team he really is!!) It would probably look like this: "That was the most embarrassing cup I have ever celebrated my drunken ass over. We didn't beat anybody to a bloody pulp all year. Where were the fights. If I weren't so drunk I would be complaining right now!"

And I am being 100% honest when I say this: You are 100% correct! Grindline and Homer have been fan favorites, people have adored them as wings, mainly because they stayed wings. Even when Mac left it was a different Mac, he was sober, broke, and destitute, much like the Mac we have now. Mac is a different person and player than the first 3 cups, and was not a pivotal piece of the 4th (I think I saw that posted or I misread that he was pivotal in cups 2 and 4, maybe it was meant to be Ozzie and I misread it). If Maltby were on the Avs or Flames these past 2 years everyone on here would be talking about how smart Kenny was not signing him, instead we are talking about retiring his number. Draper, if face off % and PK gets you in the rafters then DAMN that is taking role players to another stratosphere. And I think that is my point here, these guys were/are role players. They do their job and do it damn well, but as another poster wrote you retire people's numbers because you have 100% faith that no one could ever wear that number and do it justice again. 19 is the perfect example because we were all old enough to remember that. IF anyone even Joe Thornton or The next Great one in the draft came into the locker room they would not even think to ask for 19, not because the team thinks it is sacred, but because they know it is sacred. Another great post to think about was the post that said if you have to defend (or debate) the person's number being retired than it shouldn't be retired. It is the Jim Rice in the Hall of fame argument. He is in now so my point here is moot, but even as a Red Sox fan I didn't think he was hall worthy, why because you had to defend choosing him. Retiring Lids number is, as someone else said, a no brainer. Lids retires, the very next home game that has meaning (O6 matchup, Avs game some game with historical significance) and his number is up in the rafters. You could make a case that Dats or Z could be next, but you would be arguing for it again, maybe one day people will say, 51 without a doubt belongs in the rafters, but as of today he has as much chance as 13, 40. While they are great players and have won individual awards, they have yet to attain the level of greatness that 9, 19 and others. EDIT: Not saying he has attained the same status in the game, just trying to make the point that 13, 40 while great are not Jersey in the rafters worthy yet. Osgood I have a hard time with and have said it in the numerous Ozzie is an HOFer threads. It is hard to argue with his career numbers and if he overtakes a few more names, then sure, but as for now, right here right now if he retired tomorrow I am a NO. Certain milestones, like wins, could change my mind. I am on the fence with Ozzie and in my mind that makes my answer a no.

Agreed, which is why I added the part about them losing in the first round this year being a disappointment. If Osgood continues to play this way in the postseason it will be him who is yanked for the back up. It is, oddly enough, almost a mirror image of last year, goaltending wise. Hasek was always looking to find that proverbial groove, when it looked like the groove was going to forever evade him, Babs did what he had to. I have no doubts in my mind what so ever that if it looks at all like ConkBlock would be the "Savior" (Lack of better term) that Ozzie was last year that Babs will make the change. I didn't mean that first post to be so jackass-ish, reading I was a little short with you, or wrote it to fast and wasn't as articulate as I would have liked. This team is still one of the best in the league, and is struggling, I also realize that solid goaltending would be a huge boost to this team, but I don't think people should be so quick to jump on the "We are screwed and going to lose in the first round without Marty" bandwagon yet.

He didn't say he was happy with them limping in as the 8th seed or being the 5th seed and almost getting a home playoff round. He is talking about this team going into the playoffs 2nd in the west and 3rd in the entire league(as it stands). This is the 3rd best team in hockey, 1 point behind the 2nd best and 4 points behind the best team in the league, so what you are saying is that is not good enough for you??? This team is 37-12-8 they win over 3 times as much as they lose in regulation, the third place team in the west has 71 points (Calgary) 11 points behind the wings, the second place teams in the east have 77 (Washington and New Jersey). The Wings are in a very good place right now and are without a doubt one of the top 3 teams in the league, by a long shot. Yet this is not enough for you??? As I said it is not like the Wings are going to limp into the playoffs, they have weaknesses, but they are still one of the elite teams in the league while having sub par netminding, I see no reason for the poster you quoted to be unhappy with this years team. THE BELOW RANT IS NOT AIMED AT ANY ONE IN PARTICULAR, LEAST OF ALL EGROEN! (We may differ on opinions but I would not call you a spoiled fan) Saying the team has weaknesses and they need better play from certain areas, but you are happy with the team is a lot different than being happy with the team in 8th place. Yes we as Wing's fans have higher expectations, but, mark my words, they will not be the first place team wire to wire and win the cup every year. Thinking that nothing but the cup (In a cap era) is having too high of expectations. Especially when you consider the cap is in place to prevent exactly what the Wings are doing, we should look at this streak of 12+ years with a sense of awe and satisfaction. Instead some of us look at it as if losing in the WCF just isn't good enough. I couldn't wear my wings gear with more pride than I do right now, even My Red Sox jerseys, which took 86 years between titles and two in 4 years, are worn with less pride. The Wings are the model franchise for all sports on how to win with consistency and class, and half of the fans are the epitome of how not to be a fan! If this team bows out in the first round, yes we all should be disappointed, but not based on the history of the franchise or what happened last year, but because this was one of the top 3 teams in the league and bombed out of the first round of the playoffs. If they struggled all year to be in the middle of the pack and made it to the post season only to lose to a higher seed, then I would say oh well at least we made the post season, this team wasn't championship material the entire year any ways. This team is Championship material and losing in the first round would be a s***ty way to go out (See: Edm V Det).

[sarcasm] You and your logic can go screw yourselves[/sarcasm] Ok my point is valid it would be sweet to have high picks, however my choice of teams to use for an example sucked walrus balls!! But other than that it was an OK post, sort of!!

Can you imagine if Florida or LA were the team to win the bidding war for Huds (not that they would even get involved) that would be some really nice picks!!!!

Actually as I stated it was an honest question, posters said the difference between the two was that Feds carried the team, I asked when. Yzerman may not have carried the team in the 80's but other than the first round in 98 he carried the team the rest of the way (hence Conn Smythe and leading scorer in the post season), in 02 he carried the team through the first round and his heart not stick or knee took the team the rest of the way. You may have also noticed, though I doubt it, that the poster under me said Feds carried the team in the first round of 98, did I argue with him, did I say he was wrong. NO because it was an honest question in response to people saying Feds carried the team and Dats has not! At least I can back up my Fed is not a lock for the hall with stats and facts, egroen and I have had that discussion and you would have to ask his opinion, but it has never been an argument with me. He values what feds did in the post season, I think the fact he was only a great player for 2 seasons and his numbers are not the typical HOF numbers that he is not HOF worthy, I also don't think Cam is HOF worthy. Does that mean they don't belong or that they shouldn't be there, no it means my opinion differs from others. Unlike you, I have no problem with that, however I will defend my opinion. But thanks for bringing up something I never brought up or even mentioned.

I have a question, what team did Feds carry?? Honest question, seriously honest question! It is not like he was AO in WAS, he had very high end talent around him. The only time I REMEMBER him being asked to carry the team was against LA in the playoffs when Shanny and Yzerman were hurt. Other than that there was always Shanny, Yzerman, Lids, Igor, Fetisov, etc. Not saying he wasn't good, just I don't remember him putting the team on his back for more than a game or two, the rest of the time he was a pivotal and very important cog, but not carrying the team. Perfect example would have been had he stepped up in 02, but instead a nearly crippled Yzerman did. (sure he had 19 points in 23 games, but Yzerman willed and carried that team to victory, especially in the first round!) Just asking, not asserting he didn't, just saying I don't remember him carrying the team, when he went to ANA he was supposed to carry the team, he did for one season.

Not going to get into this argument again but Feds had 2 years where he was a top forward, then he had very good years, he was not a top 3 forward throughout the early to mid 90's unless you mean top 3 on his team. 1 year he was easily the best, another he was among the best, then he was out of the top 10. IN THE POST SEASON, different story, however I will say he was hit or miss in the post season as well, it is just he was hit more often in the post season than he was miss.

Because that last name is punishment enough!!

That! Same with the Flieschman and Green threads, if any of those players had stayed or ended up on the Wings they would not be the player they are today, due to the fact that they would get a very small fraction of the ice time they are getting on lesser teams. Keeping those guys would have probably kept them either as a 13th forward or 7th D as it is while on a team like the Kings Quincey gets top pairing kind of minutes. If Quincey is on this team still he is Derek Meech, he doesn't play over Lilja and Lebda and Cheli. These threads are really moot, as far as point goes, these guys would never have the minutes and in turn the success in the Wings org as fast as they will on lesser clubs!!

You know for something that seemed so obvious after you typed it, I never looked at it that way!!

At the time in their careers that Dats is at right now, Hands down Feds. In 4-5 years I have a sneaking suspicion that Dats will have been the better all around player. To me it looks like Dats will be this good for quite a few more years. Now if we are talking just post season I don't think Dats will ever catch up.

Can you imagine if he signs long term in Det for 6-7 mil, the Pens fans will spazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz out!!

The airborn goal was a nice touch too!!

Correct, what I should have said is at the time they beat them, it was right after the AI trade (BTW getting rid of Chauncey big mistake, one the C's learned a long time ago) and they were still a threat.

Did I say he doesn't have any talent or did I say he didn't have any top flight super stars??? Very Solid players and top flight super stars are a in a slightly different category!

No way do Pav, Z, Hossa, or Lids (Not that all 4 deserve it but bare with me a point is coming) even get a sniff of the MVP, the fact that the 4 of them are on the same team, regardless of the fact that Z and Lids are having sub par years (for them). All that the voters will look at is the team they are on, and say nope, and give it to AO who they think is on his own. Which to a degree I agree with, he doesn't have another top flight super star on his team and the goaltending in WAS is suspect. Pav and Hossa could potentially both have career years in the same year on the same team on the same line, that my friends is just STOOOOPID!!!!!! (Stupid in the good way, like bad in a good way!)

That and players willing to take a discount is what makes this team successful, it all starts with sacrifice. Could Hossa have gone after the 10 Mil a year job, sure and the Oilers would be better, would they be as good as the Wings minus Hossa, I doubt it very much unless he found a way to make Penner what we thought he would become (We as in the people like myself that though Penner was Shanny reincarnated!) . Could Z have waited to chase the All mighty Dollar, sure but would he feel as at home in NY, LA, PHO as he does in Det, would he be able to win. It is a trade off I guess more than a sacrifice because 6 mil a year (AVG) is not exactly sacrificing! But you get the point. This team even before the cap was about self sacrifice for team gain, Yzerman, Shanny, and Lids I believe all took paycuts (before Cap) to make room for Hully, Luc, and Dom! It is a great thing to be a Red Wings fan these days!!! Now if we want to talk about being a fan in 78-83 well that is a slightly different story!!

Just ordered 4 more jerseys from light in the box. The Z jersey, a Paul Pierce for me, a Paul Pierce and Troy Polamalu (Black with Superbowl patches even though they wore white in the SB, I have weird friends LOL) for a friend. $142 including expedited shipping and shipping insurance, the ONE Datsyuk Jersey I got for Christmas was more than that on its own!!! EDIT: Damn I wish the WC jersey was there last week when I ordered, oh well now I have white Dats and will have Red Z!!!

JPT< Hudler is a Restricted Free Agent, so I don't believe they have to counter offer or even have an offer on the table yet, I believe that because he is a RFA the Wings get compensation. I could be wrong, but this is the place to ask that question, it will get answered correctly!!

I think the Homer injury has more to do with it than the Contract, and I don't think Babs likes his two biggest weapons on the same line, and currently his two biggest weapons are Hossa and Dats. One thing about a hot player, if you can switch his lines and he stays hot, now you have another hot line. Last night's box score, let's all be honest, that is what we want to see from this team. Hossa Goal Dats and Z 2g 1 a +2 each. I'll take that any night of the week and even on Weekend afternoon games!! Beauty!!! If Hossa brings his heat to the second line and helps ignite Franzen or anyone else for that matter this team will be primed for the post season!! 5 in a row baby!!!